|
5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 11:32AM
#1
|
|
|
Bounded accuracy is an interesting concept, but it's only being used to part of it's potential. Damage scaling is so high for martial classes that the limits on accuracy scaling are almost irrelevant. Sure, a lower level character can hit a higher monster thanks to bounded accuracy, but if a high level PC is expected to deal 50+ damage on every melee attack a low level characters 10-15 damage is just going to feel meaningless.
Martial damage dice & martial damage bonus combine to just too much damage scaling.
Just to throw a potential fix out there, here is where I think things should go.
Martial damage dice become weapon damage dice.
Number of dice is cut dramatically down to 1/3. Max is +2 dice at 11 for fighters. Max of +1 dice for clerics.
Martial damage bonus cut to 1/7th. +3 damage at 17 for fighters.
Drastic, but I think that is where things need to be.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 11:38AM
#2
|
|
|
I'm not sure why the low level characters 10-15 damage feeling meaningless is a problem. It only feels meaningless against high level monsters, where it should feel meaningless, where in an unbounded accuracy sytem the low level character would never be able to hit anyway . . .
I'm just having trouble seeing what issue the damage scaling is having at the table? Low level characters can't kill a 15th level monster? High level characters can lop the head off an ogre in a single blow? As I see it, these are both working as intended.
If anything I'd rather see the MDB eliminated and replaced with even more MDD. More dice! You can always take the average if you want, to amke it faster, but more dice allows for maximized manuever flexibility.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 11:47AM
#3
|
Date Joined:
May 27, 2012
|
I think that scaling attack and defense is much cleaner than scaling only damage and HP. If a weak attack is going to deal trivial damage, then that just adds a lot of bookkeeping and it's still not really a threat.
On the plus side, it seems that they've heard the message that martial damage dice were a bit out of control in the last packet. I fully suspect that the next version will halve it.
The metagame is not the game.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 11:50AM
#4
|
|
|
I don't think Con mod should affect HP per level. This would greatly help the HP inflation.
As for damage, I think scaling for weapon focuses characters should go 1[W] at 1st level, 2[W] at 4th, 3[W] at 8th, 4[W] at 12th, 5[W] at 16th, and 6[W] at 20th.
Non weapon focused classes 1/2 progression - 2[W] at 10, 3[W] at 20.
Maneuvers would trade 1[W] (or more) for their effect. For example the Bullrush maneuver might trade 1[W] damage for push 10ft. A 1st level fighter who wishes to Bullrush a target would only do Str mod damage.
Some maneuvers (like parry) would have to be slightly changed to be based on [W] mechanics.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 12:33PM
#5
|
|
|
I don't think Con mod should affect HP per level. This would greatly help the HP inflation.
So 18 con gives you 4 extra hp, period? That sounds kind of weak. I like the idea of limiting hit dice to 5 or 9 or 10, but limiting to 1 is going too far IMO.
As far as MDD, 6W would be even more damage than the current system. I'm trying to reduce the scaling, not increase it :P
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 12:42PM
#6
|
|
|
I don't think Con mod should affect HP per level. This would greatly help the HP inflation.
So 18 con gives you 4 extra hp, period? That sounds kind of weak. I like the idea of limiting hit dice to 5 or 9 or 10, but limiting to 1 is going too far IMO.
As far as MDD, 6W would be even more damage than the current system. I'm trying to reduce the scaling, not increase it :P
18 Con would give you 18HP. At first level you should gain Con Score (not mod) HP added to your level 1 HD. (Bonus level 0 monsters/PCs could only have Con score HP.
Also 6[W] + 5 = 44 average damage for a d12 weapon. 1[W] + 6d6 + 25 = 52.5 average damage. So no 6W is about 20% less damage than the current system.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 1:17PM
#7
|
Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2005
|
Im not alone. I endorse this thread top to bottom from the OP to Con hp.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 1:56PM
#8
|
Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
|
Weapon damage requirement is based on how many HP you want the sum of the enemy's to have.
To me, a wizard's highest level damage spell should eliminate his portion of the HP of a average encounter's XP budget. A fighter should need about 3-4 hits to take out his portion of the average budget.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 2:21PM
#9
|
|
|
18 Con would give you 18HP. At first level you should gain Con Score (not mod) HP added to your level 1 HD. (Bonus level 0 monsters/PCs could only have Con score HP.
Also 6[W] + 5 = 44 average damage for a d12 weapon. 1[W] + 6d6 + 25 = 52.5 average damage. So no 6W is about 20% less damage than the current system.
Ah, so you are in favor of replaceing the dice + bonus with simply dice. However, a 20% decrease is not very significant in this case, IMO. Part of the reason I picked the numbers I did is because I was comparing to wizard spell damage. For example, fireball does an average of 21 damage before save, and even meteor swarm does an average of 42 damage pre-saving throw. 44 damage for an at-will weapon attack is still too much IMO, when you compare it to the damage a wizard can only do once per day.
+2 or maybe +3 W dice at 20 max IMO, for fighting classes.
As far as HP/con, I don't agree with your idea simply because Con is already seen as a weaker ability score compared to, for instance, Dexterity. I don't think Con needs to be weakened exactly, just hp levels in general should be toned down. I also don't like the gameplay consequences of starting with Con hp, as it makes it very hard to die at level one.
I'd like to see a system where you get normal hp + con bonus for level 1-9, and set hp for each level after depending on class, like 4 for warriors 2 for wizards and 3 for others.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 2:33PM
#10
|
|
|
18 Con would give you 18HP. At first level you should gain Con Score (not mod) HP added to your level 1 HD. (Bonus level 0 monsters/PCs could only have Con score HP.
Also 6[W] + 5 = 44 average damage for a d12 weapon. 1[W] + 6d6 + 25 = 52.5 average damage. So no 6W is about 20% less damage than the current system.
Ah, so you are in favor of replaceing the dice + bonus with simply dice. However, a 20% decrease is not very significant in this case, IMO. Part of the reason I picked the numbers I did is because I was comparing to wizard spell damage. For example, fireball does an average of 21 damage before save, and even meteor swarm does an average of 42 damage pre-saving throw. 44 damage for an at-will weapon attack is still too much IMO, when you compare it to the damage a wizard can only do once per day.
I could see damage being slightly lower, 5[W] at 20 for instance, but I am ok with the fighter doing better single target damage than the wizard. In fact, I expect it. A wizards fireball is great against groups, but one on one the fighter should be king. A single fireball may hit 5+ monsters and that is where the wizard really shines.
As far as HP/con, I don't agree with your idea simply because Con is already seen as a weaker ability score compared to, for instance, Dexterity. I don't think Con needs to be weakened exactly, just hp levels in general should be toned down. I also don't like the gameplay consequences of starting with Con hp, as it makes it very hard to die at level one.
I'd like to see a system where you get normal hp + con bonus for level 1-9, and set hp for each level after depending on class, like 4 for warriors 2 for wizards and 3 for others.
Con score HP at level 1 and having Heavy Armor be based of Con mod would ensure that Con remains useful.
Light Armor could be 11 + Dex mod AC
Heavy Armor could be 13 + Con mod AC
Constitution saves are one of the most called for saving throws in the game so Con will still be important for non heavy armor users. Also HD healing adds Con mod to each HD rolled so a high Con mod will be important for self healing throughout the day.
|
|
|
