Dragon 419 hit, some articles that might be of note:
Winning Races: Hobgoblins
Pretty amazing racial ability here. Auto-end an effect.
Great racial weapon training feat, flails and spears.
Constitution, and Intelligence or Charisma.
Winning Races: Bladelings
Ugh, racial is still 2/4/6 instead of 3/6/9.
Any themes? Class support of any kind?
Hobgoblin racial weapon training does sound pretty great. The stat spread could work for a Battlemind, though I'm not sure how much they like spears and flails. IIRC, they do like to MC Fighter and thus can pick up some of the nice flail and spear support over there.
A race that can get spiked chain and weapon focus for it with a feat.
Hobgoblins get a lot of weapons with flails such as nets, spiked chain, and the cahulaks.
Gouge and Greatspear too. It's a pretty nice combination feat, AND the damage on it scales 2/3/4 unlike Eladrin/Dwarf.
Wow the bladeling feats are disappointing. Spend two feats to make your fists into spiked gauntlets!
I think it's actually nice to see hobgoblin getting INT. Considering all the hob mages I killed in baldur's gate I & II, it makes sense to me :p The weapon feat is also very nice.
Would the bladeling feat make monk unarmed strike high crit? Or is monk unarmed strike and an unarmed strike made by a bladeling different.
Hobgoblin seems to be interesting. +2 initiative is solid. Unfortunately the racial power doesn't work on the most devastating conditions, stunned, dominated, and unconscious, but everything else is free game. With just the weapon training feat they are quite playable. And there is some goodies for an Elementalist with Warcaster Tactics. Phalanx Soldier could have potential, though I'm not coming up with anything right now. Plug the Gap seems like a solid defender utility, particularly for those with defender auras.
Bladelings remain atrocious.
WHAT ABOUT MY LIVING SPELLS???
/me drops a giant rock on zelink and runs away
Shoulda been Str + Int or Cha so we could have 1 race Fix the retardation that is "Play a Genasi" and "Play a Dragonborn". Also, Hobs are totes an ideal race for Warlord by the fluff.
I guess there is some funkiness there, lack of Str/Dex/Wis means Hobgoblins make the worst fighters. A race known for its military phalanx can't handle the basic martial defender role. Bit of a fluff/mechanics congruence fail.
Unfortunately, most of the feats that were cut were martial class oriented. I had had something in there for warlords, rogues, and all martial classes, but it looks like they cut back on them to fit page count.
There also wasn't as much that I could do with the racial ability bonuses as I would like. 4e already established Con/Cha, and I did not want to go to 3.x's bonus to Dex. Hobgoblins being intelligent fit their flavor. If I were building them from scratch, I'd have considered Str and Int/Cha (if svirfneblin can get a Str bonus, hobgoblins definitely can), but I think Con and Int/Cha works. It's just unfortunate that Con is almost entirely a secondary ability for 4e classes.
While the bladeling feats do suck, some of the powers seem useful(the level 6 and 22 ones seem like big gains in dps for multiattackers, and I do like the level 16 power even if it is useless for anything in combat), and the added racial trait and stat options seem to allow them to be half decent Brawlers. But seriously, those feats, wow are they bad. Maybe a fighter could make use of increasing the burst of the racial power for a close burst 2 minor action mark, but even then, there has to be better feats to take.
Hobgoblins got some awesome feats however, though I do question the int bonus stat. Guess hobgoblins get to be good swordmages now, and able to use mounts better than anyone.
So are there now 2 different improved razor storm feats? Or does the newest one override the older one?
This article catapults hobgoblins to the top 2 races for Ardents. They want to fight on the frontline but have notoriously bad AC (chain, no shields). Now they get defender AC for only two feats and no check penalty. On the other hand, if you want to use a Greatspear at reach (also an awesome weapon for Ardents), the racial weapon training is great for that too.
Aside from those two feats, the racial initiative bonus and the level 22 utility are good, and I guess the mount feat if you want to go that route? Thanks for the article, love it.
We get a fairly potent Con-Int race and charop turns its nose up at it? I've clearly been gone too long and the world has gone topsy-turvy! Given the requirement thanks to the Monster Manual that they were stuck with CON-CHA as one combination I think INT is the best choice.
Artificers and Swordmages rejoice. Spiked Chain is one of my favorite options for Artificer anyway.
New Races simply aren't going to compare to old ones without some absurdly broken mechanic (pixies).
Spiked Chain is terrible for both Artificers and Swordmages, you have better MCs to take, and Flails are mostly useless to both.
Looking at some of the mount options for Goblins and Hobgoblins, there's some juicy stuff here. These abilities have the Mount keyword, which means you need the Mounted Combat feat to use them. But that's what the Hordelands Nomad theme is for.
Warhorse (level 3, Large): +5 untyped damage bonus to rider's charge attacks.
Clawfoot (level 3, Medium): makes an MBA when its rider charges (+9 vs AC, 1d8+3). Can be ridden by a medium creature.
Magebred Destrier (level 5, Large): +6 untyped damage bonus to rider's charge attacks. Encounter power: gains temp HP = rider's surge value when rider spends a surge.
Hippogriff Dreadmount (level 5, Large): fly 10, can make a saving throw to prevent itself from falling prone or its rider falling off. Forced movement is 1 square less.
Dire Boar (level 6, Large): uses crappy MBA when its rider hits with a charge (+11 vs AC, 2d10+4, +9 vs prone targets). Also uses MBA when it dies.
Griffon (level 7, Large): fly 10, can make 2 MBA's after its rider charges (+12 vs AC, +14 when bloodied, 2d6+10).
Dragonhawk (level 8, Large): fly 12, roll twice for initiative.
Wyvern (level 10, Large): fly 8, rider gets +2 untyped bonus to all defenses while flying.
Nightmare (level 13, Large): teleport 10 with rider, resist 20 fire for rider.
Hm, looks like it drops off after heroic. You don't want to ride a mount that instantly dies when hit, even if its defenses scale with yours. Although a Martyr's Saddle fixes that a bit if you're not really using your immediate action.
The dex shenanigans could be done with a dead hobby... Waiting for mellos first revenant hobgoblin build...
You missed the Behir Stormsteed and the Pact Dragon sven. They were always worth using because of their brokenness, those two.
I only checked the Item section of the Compendium for mounts. I'm reading RF's mount guide, and just noticed that there are a lot more mounts available. Not sure if you can get those without cooperation from your DM though, since they don't have an official pricetag.
By the way, a link to the download page in the OP would be nice.
Q: Does the Hobgoblin utility "Plug the Gap" immediately give you an OA? Since it is an interupt to them moving and now you are standing next to them, or can they stop the movement to avoid getting knocked around?
The trigger still resolves, the only thing that can cancel a trigger that's already begun is an Immediate Action that forces the trigger to become invalid (such as proning a moving creature)
An immediate interrupt jumps in when its trigger occurs, taking place before the trigger finishes.
If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy.
Interrupts Target’s Action: An opportunity action takes place before the target finishes its action. After the opportunity attack, the creature resumes its action.
Seems this works! The interrupt allows you to step in before the target moves, and the movement then provokes an OA when it actually leaves its square. And like Zathris says, the enemy can't choose to not move since the trigger still resolves. Nice for classes like Fighters and Euphoric Ardents who have good OA's.
It's the same argument for Lightning Rushing an enemy making a ranged attack.
Hobgoblin article is pretty good. There are a few good niche feats in there. Hobgoblin Phalynx Soldier is interesting, but I can't think of too many classes its worth using on. Shamans are the only one that jumps out at me as not having a shield at all and not wanting something else in the off hand, but its not bad on some other casters. Some light shield classes like bards and warlords can get use out of it. Probably some hybrids too.
Superior discipline doesn't seem worth it for a daily. Plug the gap is very good.
Bladeling article is disappointing. Nothing in the race seems that interesting and the racial attack is the one thing with real potential, but it doesn't scale right.
Shiny. I dig the hobgoblin.
Also seriously? 13 Str and a feat gets you +2 to AC and Reflex without any other penalty, if you're a class that doesn't use shields, and you can't think of too many classes it's worth using on? Weren't we just discussing how people like Unarmored Agility? By RAW, it also gives Spiked Shield proficiency, if that's your thing, and so you get the 'ignore check penalty' part for free. I can definitely see something like an Elementalist going for a shield instead of DIS.
Goblinoid Mount Training: Flavorful, useful if you actually care to use it, but not spectacular.
Hobgoblin Beast Companion: Probably not worth the feat, but again flavorful. I'm not sure why you care if your beast companion has an effect on it.
Hobgoblin Phalanx Soldier: Very strong defensive feat. Heavy Shield without check penalty, all for one feat, will provide a serious defensive boost to certain classes. Anyone not specifically using two weapons or a two-hander should look at this.
Hobgoblin Weapon Training: Fantastic. All of these profiency + improved focus feats are great, and this is no exception. Very nice set of weapons, as well. Greatspear, gouge, spiked chain, triple-headed flail are the standouts. Note that even without Spiked Chain Training, the Spiked Chain is still a +3/2d4 reach flail. If you don't need it to be a double weapon or a light blade, this feat alone is sufficient.
Phalanx Advance: Nice, I guess. Not that nice.
Warcaster Tactics: Similar feats for other classes have obnoxious stat prereqs. For the select few classes that could use this, it could be very effective. It'd be nicer if it applied to area, as well, which is why it isn't blue.
Warrior's Sacrifice: Nice flexible option for an already awesome racial power, if you like handing out saves this is for you.
Utility powers, meh. I'm too lazy to rate.
A nice bonus about Hobgoblin Phalanx Soldier is the fact that you gain proficiency in all shields if this is like other racial profiency feats, this should imply even superior shields; at the least barbed shields (that are a bit meh) but a reasonable argument should be made for spiked shields/tortoise blades/gauntlet axes
Bladeling is...odd. It will make for a decent brawler. The racial trait is free damage for a brawler, even if it isn't much.
I really don't understand how they can still not understand that non-weapon, non-implement attacks need to be 3/6/9, and not 2/4/6. Really guys? Still, minor action attack, but not much in the way of damage, and zero optimization potential. Party-unfriendly is annoying.
Bladed Fists is awful. If you're going to be using unarmed attacks, this isn't the way you're going to do it.
Bladed Stalker is a lot better, albeit niche. If you're one of those odd beasts that uses MC Monk for MUS, this could be effective. I may revisit my brawler|striker hybrid concept with a Bladeling. Too bad you can't get str/dex, though.
Brutal Blades is awful. Pathetic upgrade for a near-useless power. Pass.
Improved Razor Storm is also awful. Oh look, my party-unfriendly close burst just got larger, so it can hurt more of my friends! The crit effect is just downright insulting.
The L6 utility is actually rather amazing for a striker, however. Very few utility feats can offer that kind of raw power.
Oh, as far as Phalanx Soldier goes, it should be noted that it plays well with the racial trait. Make friends with your local sword-and-board, and it's +3 AC / +2 Reflex.
More thoughts on the Hobgoblin: They should make rather stellar Artificers.
And don't most brawlers MC monk and get a +3/1d8 unarmed anyway?
Yes, which is why it's awful. I didn't notice the prereq in my first reading, hence the reaction.
But the question still remains, would that feat make the bladeling's MUS high crit?
I know that the monk unarmed strike is a specific game element, however, the feat says your unarmed strike, meaning an unarmed strike by the bladeling who has the feat. Would this result in a monk unarmed strike by a bladeling with that feat having high crit?
Are you asking a computer (ie, the builder, in which case likely implementations will not have it work. Different IDs of the game elements, after all), a DM who hates you (see above), or a sane DM? Sane DM, sure. You spent TWO FEATS for high crit on MUS, a feature you're unlikely to ever use. Have at it.
Who was it who has that sig quote about how charop assumes block-of-tofu DMs?
Hey, two feats is STILL too expensive for High-Crit, in the maximally used case.
(Bladeling brawler fighter? Er, ok? More "have at it". Bladeling Rogue at least has some semblance of support, and isn't crippled by taking Monk MC.)
Its not like d6s or d8s are impressive high crit too.
Also, Mand stop being an **** just to be ****. K thx bye.
Aw come on, that last one I was trying to poke fun at myself, for Pelor's sake.
Just because I've not yet beaten this horse enough...
Let's assume an Avenger|Monk bladeling, with MUS, fer some reason... +3/1d10.
Adding "High Crit", assuming Avenger attacks here (Power of Skill on Overwhelming strike) is worth 0.09 * 5.5. That's 0.49 DPR.
In paragon, that doubles because HC is now 2d10. Two feats for less than one DPR. Less than a half a DPR per feat. Assuming a higher-than-realistic crit rate with MUS. That's Turrible ((tm) Charles Barkley).
In Epic, you can have a 0.19 crit rate IIRC, and it's now 3d10. Two feats for 3.13 DPR. Still Turrible. (still (tm) Chuck).
And I'm not including any costs for having a +3/1d10 MUS. It's a bad feat. It's a terrible feat. And there's no saving it without cutting out the preqs. And EVEN IF IT HAD NO PREQS, it would STILL be a bad feat (it would just be an excusably bad one)
Edit: I now declare this horse dead.
Well at least it's a new race I can use to make melee artificers and swordmages with. You know, for variety's sake. Good job Herid.
Oh absolutely, two classes for whom more damage (genasi) and fairly trivial survivability (warforged) aren't primary concerns on standard builds, I'm sure the authors of those guides (ie. Herid and I) are currently pondering if the matching stats, racial power, init bonus, mount feat, shield feat, spear feat (for the Arti), U6, and U10 justify changing the ratings of other races due to "Hobgobs are better". Right now, I'm leaning toward yes, since Warfoged really didn't bring much to the THP cannon that is the Conificer.
Also, can we settle on a standardized shortening of Hobgoblin? Do I need to make a new thread for this discussion?
Hobies sounds too childish to me, Hobo has it's obvious issue. I'm a bit partial to just Hobs, if only because Watterson was genius.
Well, Hobgoblins sound wonderful! I'm always thrilled to see a Non-Dex/Cha race! Plus, they now dovetail into my three favorite classes: Elementalist, artificer, and Wizard.
Quick question, no where in the thread did anyone mention the bladeling's new stats. if I remember from MotP... Dex...Wis was it?
There's another thread up right now about how they are not getting as many errata notices any more. Sounds to me like getting all the old racials up to a 3/6/9 standard and removing the req on the MUS feat to be prime candidates.
I dunno how anyone's favorite classes could be elementalist.
Besides that, yeah Hobs were done really well. Bladelings are **** with zero racial support and bad racial stats. So yeah, they're the same.
I just find the simplicity of the elementalist a fun thing to take to delve nights. Yea it scales terribly, but it's fun enough.
They don't do anything that some other race you've actually heard of doesn't do better.
Which means the Worm isn't gonna eat the Bladeling, which makes them more useless. Yay?
Just got word back. They do not want me to release any content they're very already paid for, though I am free to homebrew any stuff I'd like, of course.
And, of course, they're never going to publish it. Welcome to how IP law destroys the commons.
What if we held a massive, online homebrew one-shot with herid as DM?
The following feats are the sort of feats I'd have made if I had unlimited word count and knew that what I wrote would go in relatively unchanged. Since this is CharOp and not an actual article, please forgive me for poor feat names and a lack of flavor text. (I'd also worry a bit more about feat wording, but all of these should be clear enough in their effects).
Hobgoblin Fortitude - Prereq:11th level, hobgoblin, hobgoblin resilience racial power; You gain a +2 feat bonus to all saving throws. In addition, when you save against an effect or end an effect with hobgoblin discipline, you do not suffer any of its aftereffects.
Hobgoblin Blademaster - Prereqs: hobgoblin, Phalanx Soldier class feature, swordmage, Swordmage Warding class feature; When a swordmage power allows you to teleport a number of squares, you may instead shift that number of squares + 2. Also, while you gain the bonus from Swordmage Warding, you count as wielding a shield for the purposes of Phalanx Soldier.
Hobgoblin Chain Fighter - Prereqs: hobgoblin, Phalanx Soldier racial feature, proficiency with spiked chain; While you wield a spiked chain, you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC and Reflex, and you count as wielding a shield for the purpose of Phalanx Soldier.
Hobgoblin Preparedness - Prereqs: 11th level, hobgoblin, Battle Ready racial trait; When you roll initiative and are not surprised, you may draw a weapon, implement, or shield as a free action. If you draw a shield, you also ready it.
In addition, your racial bonus to initiative from Battle Ready increases to +4.
Hobgoblin Shield Guardian - Prereqs: hobgoblin, fighter; When you wield a shield and a flail or spear, allies do not provoke opportunity attacks when entering your space or squares adjacent to you.
Hobgoblin Psychic Channeling - Prereqs: hobgoblin, battlemind; When wielding a flail or spear, you may use Constitution in place of Strength when making a basic attack. Also, when you make an opportunity attack with a flail or spear and hit, you do additional damage equal to your Charisma or Intelligence modifier.
Hobgoblin Spooky Action - Prereqs: hobgoblin, warlock, Warlock's Curse class feature; When you use Warlock's Curse, you may ignore enemies that you have already cursed for the purpose of determining the closest enemy.
In addition, the size of your Warlock's Curse dice increases to d8.
Hobgoblin Shield Master - Prereqs: 21st level, hobgoblin, Phalanx Soldier racial feature; The racial bonus from Phalanx Soldier also applies to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.
Your shield bonus also applies to your Fortitude and Will.
Hobgoblin Arcanist - Prereqs: hobgoblin, Phalanx Soldier racial feature, any arcane class; You gain profiency with staffs as an implement. When wielding a staff in both hands, you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC and Reflex, and you count as wielding a shield for the purposes of Phalanx Soldier.
Don't Do It - Prereqs: hobgoblin, vampire; You die and make a new character (it's kinder in the long run).
I seriously wish that stuff would've been in the article, Herid...great stuff.
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