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5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 4:43AM
#81
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2010
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I don't like dnd and I thought I rant a little. All the fans of dnd, I wish you well and don't pay attention to what I say, but here it goes:
18/16/15/7/7/7 you say? These are the roots of a **** game. The main reason is - classes. It is a conflicting wish, to want class and customizability. What do you want, customize? ... drop the classes! You don't want to customize? ... use ready made characters!
But we have a middle ground - crap from both sides. So what does a 18/16/15/7/7/7 say - it says that half the attributes are not relevant. To me it is instant turn-off. If strength, speed and toughness is important - go play with tanks (no pun intended). But roleplay game should be about persons, roles - every attribute should be as important. But this 18/16/15/7/7/7 is optimized for fighter class, that means wisdom and charisma are already useless. That's why I feel that when ever there are classes, I play class, not a role.
In my view class should be only fluff, without mechanics. Like a hunter is class, a profession. This is what I can do, but it does not stop me waring a armor, etc.
But dnd cannot evolve to something else. It must stay goofy and gamey, because it is too big. Dnd is ready. Go play. It cannot evolve.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 6:19AM
#82
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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18/18/13/11/10/8That's not the best point buy for most characters
Actually it is, it's by far the most common for classes that require a secondary, which is nearly all of them.
The ones that don't require a secondary typically are 20/16/11/10/10/8, for a comparison of lopsidedness. Sometimes the 16 is a 14 and the +2 is somewhere else, because if the secondary isn't useful sometimes other miscellaneous stats are.
For those unfamiliar, these correspond to the following arrays, pre-racial (which is +2 to two stats, in this case matching the two highest):
18/14/11/10/10/8
16/16/13/11/10/8
I see way more 18/14/11 or 18/13/13 than 16/16/13. It's your anecdote vs mine, so unless you can bring hard data about the most used arrays, you cannot state that it is the most common.
Anecdotes have nothing to do with it, my analysis was based on the percentage of classes and builds that use each optimally.
Usage doesn't matter.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 6:49AM
#83
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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This is might sound stupid, but why can't point buy and rollers play in the same game, and could point buy be seen as an rpg element its self?
Like you where trained your whole life to be the "perfect" killer so wouldn't it make sense in this instance to give the character some kinda of point buy option? I would be cool if some of the monsters had a bit of random too.
If the DM is prepared to really deal with the potential disparity between two characters that rolled their stats then they're also prepared to deal with the potential disparity between one rolling randomly and one buying attributes with points. Random stats and point buy systems are both rpg elements mechanically and conceptually and have their own merits with regard to character creation.
There is no wrong way to do this thing and the system is theoretically able to handle a number of methods at the table. I personally would insist on everyone doing it the same way 'cause it's easier for me as a DM, but if someone says to just pick a method from a list and go house then that's what I'll do.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 7:38AM
#84
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2007
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... It's an issue of Creative Sterility. If you use nonrandom generation methods, there WILL be a mathematically 'perfect' execution that gets used ad nauseum. ...
A beautiful explanation. I have never really seen this argument put forth so well or so clearly. Thank you for a great response to this thread.
Re: your aside; I have seen firsthand the effects of rolling for scores many times, and sometimes it does go badly. It's sometimes not even a palpable thing, or if you ask a player why they don't like their character, they can't really say or wouldn't think of the scores. But they don't like them quite as much, and find other characters to be better in some way. Missing 10% more of the time doesn't seem like something that would build over time, but I have seen it happen. This isn't really a more power = more fun statement, but my opinion is that equal power does mean a better chance of equal fun, especially over the long term. Rolling tends to work much better for one-shots, in my opinion. Campaigns crave balance.
Hopefully we can agree that...
a) Point buy is a valid system
b) Rolling for stats is a valid system
and
c) D&DN should let groups choose which they want to use.
As long as there's a choice present, I don't particularly care which gets top billing.
Completely agreed. Not sure what else needs to be said.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 8:12AM
#85
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2008
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I have played in groups that demanded point buy. I acquiesced but was not satisfied with that method. I have played in groups that used random generation and some of them weren't happy with their rolls. There is no easy solution. Some people want to be random and very lucky. Some people just want the best character at the table. I have never played with a mix off generation methods at the same table.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 8:18AM
#86
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2013
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If I come to the table with a character concept in mind that I've been wanting to try out, I use point-buy to make it. If I really don't care what I play, I'll roll and choose from there. Guess I'm just flexible like that.
The 2 core goals of DDN:
1. Create a version of D&D that embraces the enduring, core elements of the game.
2. Create a set of rules that allows a smooth transition from a simple game to a complex one.
- Mike Mearls
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5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 8:31AM
#87
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I like the way the new Gamma World did rolling. Your primary score(s) were set high, but you rolled everythign else.
The new rolling method could be: roll 5 attributes and choose one of your classes primaries to start off at 16.
Edit: If rolling is going to be equal to point buy, the impact of rolling should be reduced overall. Ability score modifiers should be spread out more.
3-5: -2
6-8: -1
9-11: +0
12-14: +1
15-17: +2
18-20: +3
21-23: +4
24-26: +5
27-29: +6
30: +7
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5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 9:07AM
#88
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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Thank you for the clarification. I was getting increasingly concerned that I was missing some vital piece of information.
So, that beng established, is the 4e version of Point Buy (no stat lower than 8, and mathematically untenable to lower another below 10) less ornerous, or more palatable to those who don't like point buy in general?
I guess what I'm trying to get at is whether people who object to point buy (in general) do so because of the propensity for min maxing, or some other reason. If the min maxing could be systematically be mitigated, would the objection be dropped, or at least lowered?
Point buy is a completely valid method of character generation. I don't like it, I will never use it unless at a sanctioned event that required it, but it should remain in the core rules as a method of generation. I would vastly prefer that sanctioned events use random generation.
CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production.
D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
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5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 9:48AM
#89
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2012
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If every single stat were useful to every class then its a problem when you roll an eight. Dump stats allow me as a player to prioritize my stats and place the most useful ones where they should go. That being said I like point buy since I can make my character not at the place we play since everything for the game is commonly kept where we play. I don't hate rolling either though. I think rolling is honestly easier since for point buy I need to usually find a point buy calculator.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 9:57AM
#90
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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If every single stat were useful to every class then its a problem when you roll an eight. Dump stats allow me as a player to prioritize my stats and place the most useful ones where they should go.
But only if you only care about min/maxing. If you care about roleplaying, then having an 8 intelligence as a fighter means that you are roleplaying Forest Gump. A lot of people don't want to roleplay Forest Gump, so they won't put an 8 in intelligence. Similar defects occur with below average stats in each area. Personally, unless my concept calls for the character to be below average in a particular stat, I don't want ANY stat to be below 10.
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