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5 months ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 1:48PM #21
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 9,967

Jan 13, 2013 -- 1:31PM, MechaPilot wrote:

"I and my players don't like it" isn't a reason to drop something from the game. It's a reason to explore making it optional, like they've done with feats and skills.


Bingo. My group found that racial powers were a great way to make races actually feel relevant beyond character creation, and some of us like our races to actually feel relevant beyond character creation. I have no problem with their no longer being mandatory, as some people don't care about race remaining relevant, but for those of us that do, why not include it as an option for alternative racial features?

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM

Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.

Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 2:29PM #22
blacksheepcannibal
Date Joined: Dec 13, 2006
Posts: 1,018
I'm pretty floored that somebody experienced "my players never used their racial abilities in 4e". Very surprising, to the point of being almost suspicious. No dragonborn ever used their breath weapon? No elf ever re-rolled an attack? No halfling made an opponent reroll? This is pretty shocking, I don't see why somebody would have a power like that and just simply not use it.

But that aside, yeah, attribute bonuses from race - or arguably, even background - only restrict player options when they make their character. "Well, I can pick from these races that give a bonus to my strength, or I can pick from these backgrounds that give a bonus to my strength, or I can gimp my character" is a very different situation from "I can make my fighter...teleport once, make an opponent re-roll an attack, or just not get pushed around as easily? Well, those are all good choices...".
Want the tl;dr of my posts? Read the bold text; I put it there to highlight the main points for ease of skimming.
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 2:46PM #23
Saelorn
Date Joined: May 27, 2012
Posts: 2,955

Jan 13, 2013 -- 2:29PM, blacksheepcannibal wrote:

I'm pretty floored that somebody experienced "my players never used their racial abilities in 4e". Very surprising, to the point of being almost suspicious. No dragonborn ever used their breath weapon? No elf ever re-rolled an attack? No halfling made an opponent reroll? This is pretty shocking, I don't see why somebody would have a power like that and just simply not use it.


I experienced similar, but mostly with new players who were constantly forgetting that they even had that power.  The more experienced players, meanwhile, simply didn't want to use the ability now because it might be more useful later.  I could definitely see a halfling saving use of her power unless the attack was one that was going to drop her; and I've also seen players who rely on at-wills for 90% of their attacks, so it wouldn't surprise me to find a dragonborn who would mostly forget about its breath weapon.

The metagame is not the game.
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 3:13PM #24
kezzek
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 1,198

Jan 13, 2013 -- 7:43AM, pauln6 wrote:

I think you need a clearer distinction between culture and race.  Culture dictates which weapons you use, bonus skills, armour etc.  Racial issues should be physiological and I woiuld include elven grace, halfling luck, and dwarven resilience in among that lot.  I certainly would not include water breathing as a cultural issue, although doubling the time someone can hold their breath or granting advantage on rolls to void drowning might be appropriate.



Revised:

Every character selects a race, an environmental subtype, and a culture from the following list:


Racial Abilities

  • Elf; Low­ Light Vision, Keen Senses, Free Spirit, Trance
  • Dwarf; Low­ Light Vision, Slow, Resilience
  • Halfling; Small, Slow, lucky, Nimbleness
  • Human; quick learner (increase skill die 1 step)
  • Gnome; Small, Slow, Animal Affinity, Illusion cantrip
  • Lizardfolk; Low light vision, natural weapons, hold breath
  • Drow; low light vision, keen senses, innate magic
  • Orc; low light vision, relentless
  • Kobold; Small, low light vision, light sensitivity, slight build, natural weapons
  • Phanaton; Small, gliding
  • Ogre; Low light vision, large size, reach
  • Celestial; Low light vision, innate magic, resistance (radiant)
  • Infernal; Low Light vision, Resilience
  • Dragon; Low Light Vision, Keen Senses, Breath weapon

Environmental Subtype:

  • Woodland; +1 Dexterity, Woodland Grace, Speed+5
  • High Magic; +1 Intelligence, cantrip
  • Mountain; +1 Wisdom, stone cunning
  • Hills; +1 Constitution, toughness
  • Explorer; +1 Charisma, fearless
  • Swamp; +1 Strength, camoflauge
  • Underground; +1 Dexterity, sneak
  • Tundra; +1 Strength, toughness
  • Urban; +1 Charisma, social
  • Plains; +1 Wisdom, natural stealthy
  • Extraplanar; +1 Intelligence, resistance to an energy type
  • Aquatic: +1 Wisdom, amphibious
  • Rural, +1 Constitution, resistance to disease 

Cultural Abilities

  • Elf; Elf Weapon Training, Languages (Elven, Common)
  • Dwarf; Dwarf Weapon Training, Armor Mastery, Languages (Dwarven, Common)
  • Halfling; Halfling Weapon Training, Languages (Halfling, Common)
  • Human; Human weapon training (crossbows, polearms), Languages (Common, Local Dialect)
  • Gnome; Gnome weapon training (picks), Languages (Gnome, Common)
  • Lizardfolk; Lizardfolk weapon training (trident, spears, clubs), Languages (Draconic, Common)
  • Drow; Drow weapon training (hand crossbow, scimitar), Languages (Drow, Common)
  • Orc; Orc weapon training (Axes), Languages (Common, Orc)
  • Kobold; Kobold weapon training (slings, daggers), Languages (Draconic, Common)
  • Phanaton; Phanaton weapon training (net, club), Languages (Elven, Common)
  • Ogre; Ogre weapon training (spear, club), Languages (Giant, Common)
  • Celestial; Celestial weapon training (swords), Languages (Celestial, Common)
  • Infernal; Infernal weapon training (Spiked Chain, Flail), Languages (Infernal, Common)
  • Dragon; Dragon weapon training (none), Languages (Draconic, Common)

A hybrid (1/2 elf, 1/2 orc, 1/2 ogre, ½ Dragon, Aasimar (1/2 celestial), Tiefling (1/2 infernal), etc.) may select the racial abilities of one parent and the cultural abilities of one parent (although they don't need to match), and can choose an environmental subtype from among the common ones of either parent.   They may also choose to be multicultural.

A multicultural character may pick the weapon training of one parent's race and the languages granted by the other parent's race. 


Weapon training grants one higher die when using that weapon.

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 3:15PM #25
LolaBonne
Date Joined: Aug 15, 2011
Posts: 967
Doesn't having the list of cultures based on race kind of hose the whole 'race and culture should be separate' thing?  Race and Environment are sufficient.
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 3:22PM #26
kezzek
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 1,198

Jan 13, 2013 -- 3:15PM, LolaBonne wrote:

Doesn't having the list of cultures based on race kind of hose the whole 'race and culture should be separate' thing?  Race and Environment are sufficient.



A dwarf raised by wood elves might have the Dwarf race, Woodland Subtype, and Elven Culture.  A half-elf raised by humans might have the Elven Race, Urban Subtype, and Human Culture.  They may also pick to remain multicultural and keep the human weapon training but keep the Elven language.

Does that make sense?

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 5:37PM #27
GuyeFaux
Date Joined: Jul 27, 2009
Posts: 49
I like it.

Also add my vote to getting rid of racial ability modifiers, for two reasons: 1. I'd like to remove race as a parameter for min-maxing, and 2. I like the idea that Legolas was really good at shooting a bow and balancing on the backs of large creatures because he spent the last 200 years swinging from trees and hunting, preferring it to the idea that he was good at those things because Elves are good at those things.

Some suggestions:

  • Humans get no racial abilities, but they get two backgrounds or two subtypes. 
  • Plains subtypes get Riding for free;
  • The attribute adjustments from some of the environments seem forced. Like I see why you'd put +1 Strength for swamp (swimming), but surely Dexterity (avoiding falling into the bog) or Intelligence (remembering where you are) or Wisdom (spotting the 'gator before it eats you) are just as arguable?
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 10:31PM #28
kezzek
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 1,198

Jan 13, 2013 -- 5:37PM, GuyeFaux wrote:

I like it.

Also add my vote to getting rid of racial ability modifiers, for two reasons: 1. I'd like to remove race as a parameter for min-maxing, and 2. I like the idea that Legolas was really good at shooting a bow and balancing on the backs of large creatures because he spent the last 200 years swinging from trees and hunting, preferring it to the idea that he was good at those things because Elves are good at those things.

Some suggestions:

  • Humans get no racial abilities, but they get two backgrounds or two subtypes. 
  • Plains subtypes get Riding for free;
  • The attribute adjustments from some of the environments seem forced. Like I see why you'd put +1 Strength for swamp (swimming), but surely Dexterity (avoiding falling into the bog) or Intelligence (remembering where you are) or Wisdom (spotting the 'gator before it eats you) are just as arguable?



Do you have a solution for attribute adjustments?  Would you eliminate them entirely or just add more variability?

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 10:52PM #29
rampant
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 7,990
things in regards to the list:

1. Does everyone besides humans need lowlight vision? Is it really an ability if 75%+ of the races have it? 

2. The skill die thing on humans is a bad idea, not only does it stop being applicable at higher levels when the dice maxes out, but skills are coming from backgrounds which are supposedly an optional feature. Frankly humans have some very cool potential features, such as hunger and empathy that could be explored for much cooler features.

3. Natural weapons are either OP, imbalanced, or a non-ability. If they are better than a weapon you can get they are OP, if they force you into weapon using classes they are imbalanced, and if they don't do either of those things then you're better off with a normal weapon and thus recieve no real benefit.

4. I think the environmental subtypes are  mistake. Each race should adapt to each environment in it's own way.  
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 14, 2013 - 12:37AM #30
SebastianJ
Date Joined: Jan 10, 2013
Posts: 26
1.  The low-light vision thing was actually a big thing in most of our fighters picking dwarf these days.  Turns out not having to worry about torchlight is a huge tactical advantage for fighters.  Any sort of enhanced vision needs to be treated as a major advantage in the final draft

"You mean my damage die for these weapons and my hitpoints get BIGGER and I don't have to worry about torches AND I have advantage vs poison AND I get an ability score increase?  SWEET.  Why would I want to ever play anything else?" --How my dwarf players feel. (To be fair to them, we had all just seen the Hobbit.)

2.  I'd maybe try and categorize the various racial perks when designing races.  Give each race a major perk, a lesser perk, and one or two minor perks.

Major:  Has specific, important tactical application, such as increased hit die, weapon training, or a bonus manuever
Lesser:  Has more general applications that are less critical to life or death situations, but generally useful.  This would be dark vision or a stat bonus.
Minor:  Very general sometimes useful skills, like bonus languages...."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />
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