When the ship is sinking, everyone needs to focus on saving that ship. if we all sit in our corners hoping each of our demands are met then we all go down with that ship. So stop being stubborn about the timeline, stop being resistant to authors who aren't your favorites, and give up this silly notion that paper novels will ever be dominant again.
And what do you expect people to do? To throw their money (which -in many cases- is not abundant at all these days) at a corporate which drove many of them away (because apparently the FR needed 'fresh blood'), in the hope that one day it may publish something they could enjoy?
Well I guess the way to sum this up is that everyone has demands on what THEY want the Realms to be. Otherwise they just won't make the purchase. I think a lot of you get confused into thinking that this is your setting some how. It's not. When it comes to the novels, we are merely passengers. If you want things to be different, then create your own world and tell your own stories. Or even better, save up a couple of tens of millions of dollars and try buying the IP from WoTC. Then you can put the setting back into 1987 mode.
Well, that certainly isn’t the way I would sum up my own post. I can only assume that you weren’t referring to me as being part of the “everyone”. Either that or you were incorrect.
I make no demands of the Realms. I never have. As you point out, the setting is not ours to drive (novel wise) and so as such making demands is not only futile but potentially damaging to the relationship between we the fans and WotC.
I do, however, have stipulations about which of their products I buy as a consumer. As is my right. One of those stipulations is that I will only buy a product that I will either enjoy, find useful or both. This is also my right.
But the reality is that none of that will happen. But what is going to happen is that Realms fiction is going to die a slow death because people are throwing fits that things changed too much or that they can't get their literature in dead tree form. You all sound like a bunch of old men screaming for us to get off of your lawns.
Again, I can only assume you weren’t referring to me with you “you all sound” generalisation. Personally, I do not see choosing to not buy a book because you get no enjoyment or use out of it as not only sensible but as an integral part of the experience. After all, if we all buy every product that WotC produces irrespective of whether we actually want it or not, they will have little to no idea of what we actually do want. Will WotC kill FR novels if a particular section of the line doesn’t do as well as they had hoped? I doubt it. FR novels have, if historical anecdotes are to be believed, proved to be a comparatively lucrative portion of the product market. Are they then more likely to prune failing novel lines/authors and concentrate on those that prove popular? Or try new things to see if they would be more popular? That seems far more likely to me, and far more like the way that businesses operate.
When the ship is sinking, everyone needs to focus on saving that ship. if we all sit in our corners hoping each of our demands are met then we all go down with that ship. So stop being stubborn about the timeline, stop being resistant to authors who aren't your favorites, and give up this silly notion that paper novels will ever be dominant again.
This is an horrendous analogy. The reason everyone on a sinking ship focuses on saving the sinking ship is to save their own lives and livelihoods. To compare this essential action with the purchasing of hobby materials using disposable income during a global financial crisis is verging on crass. As mentioned in my post, I listed several authors in the 4E time period (including Erin Evans who writes exclusively in the 4E time period) as being ones that I follow. I am trying others all of the time. Some, I am sure, will be added to the list of authors I will follow. Some won’t. Such is life.
But whatever. I'm starting to recognize that I'm fighting a losing battle here. Maybe I'm in the minority here in feeling that I want the Realms fiction to continue at whatever cost. No one seems to care, and if they do they have demandes that most likely won't or can't be met. I guess I'll just enjoy it while it lasts.
If you were the only one paying the cost of your crusade, then I would consider your suggestion as being all well and good. However, you are telling others to pay it too, and berating them when they raise objections. I won't go as far as to suggest that you are being hypocritical by making your own demands (in a similar fashion to that which you imply others are guilty of). This time.
I will make this plain again, just in case I failed to be clear the first time around.
1) I want Realms fiction to continue, I look forward to authors both new and old telling stories in whatever timeline they wish to tell them.
2) That said, I will not use my (very limited) disposable income to buy books that I do not enjoy.
My approach to the NPCs of previous editions. Spoiler:Show
I always saw the High Level NPCs as shepherds of the Realms not its defenders. Making sure that not too many sheep were lost as they milled around (as they are wont to do) and bringing on the young'uns into the job. In that way a shepherd never has time to go and hunt down all of the wolves but is pretty dashed effective at keeping them away from the sheep when they rear their heads.
"It was a puzzle why things were always dragged kicking and screaming. No one ever seemed to want to, for example, lead them gently by the hand." - Terry Pratchett
Why is it that i never hear trekkies whining about the "time jump" between the original and the Next Gen or between the original tv show and the movies? That effectively killed off alot of character as well, but some, like Bones and Elminster are still around.
Because you don't hang out on Star Trek boards? Or the "television without pity" website, or similar TV show forums?
Every fandom has issues with IPs that last a long time and undergo changes. Some fans on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" websites get so involved with their show that they detail angrily why they don't like her hairstyle in a particular season. It all depends on how much particular fans feel invested in their respective fandoms, and whether or not they happen to like big changes that happen over time.
Well, that certainly isn’t the way I would sum up my own post. I can only assume that you weren’t referring to me as being part of the “everyone”. Either that or you were incorrect.
I make no demands of the Realms. I never have. As you point out, the setting is not ours to drive (novel wise) and so as such making demands is not only futile but potentially damaging to the relationship between we the fans and WotC.
I do, however, have stipulations about which of their products I buy as a consumer. As is my right. One of those stipulations is that I will only buy a product that I will either enjoy, find useful or both. This is also my right.
Although you were responding to Caolin's post, I agree with what you're saying here. There is no need to make assumptions about what people think, or group people into categories based on rather insulting personal interpretations.
People like different things. I have no illusions (as has been suggested) that I "own" the Realms or need to have every single one of my expectations met. But at the same time, I have invested money, time, and my own design into Realms products over the decades.
As a customer, I reserve every right to buy the things that I like and not to buy the things I don't like or won't use. If I didn't care about the future of the Realms, that would be the end of it. But I do care, and so I make my opinions known - what I like, what I don't like, what will make me buy more things. I do not expect all or even most other customers to agree with my views, and never have.
I live a comfortable life in the first world. Even so, money does not grow on trees. Gaming products and novels are luxury items. When I look at any luxury item I have to ask, "why do I want this, and is it worth the price?" The OP is suggesting that we should support and buy everything, even when we strongly dislike certain products. Why? To support the company? To give them my good money and send the message that I think everything is still as I like it?
Sorry, no. In life you have to pick and choose, you have to discriminate in matters of taste. Especially for luxury products. It's actually unhealthy on a personal level to continually spend your extra "fun" money on things you don't like, for someone else's benefit. I buy things I like. It's actually nice of me as a customer to come and say to a company, "hey, I don't like X but I did like Y. Make more Y and I'll buy that."
Just off the top of my head I can think of all the non-elf characters from the two comic books, Jack Ravenwild, Anders, Ruha, Alusair, Azoun the 5th, Alias, Malik, the Sembia family, the characters from Temple Hill, and Yellow Silk.
As I understand it Jack Ravenwild is still alive and kicking in "City of Ravens".
Princess Alusair is still around, albeit as a ghost and featured in at least two current era Elminster novels I've read.
Azoun V was discussed in both the Backdrop: Cormyr and Cormyr Royale articles.
Aren't books like Yellow Silk and Temple Hill one shots?
Did any Alias novels see print by the 3rd Edition of D&D? If the rather generous definition of "killed off" we're using includes "just not writing anything about a character anymore" then blame 3E, not 4E.
This last is important: I've yet to see anyone who's deeply into the novel line draw a distinction (or rather, at least recognize) that had 4E not happened, a whole bunch of pre-4E novel characters probably wouldn' have been written about anyway.
The Forgotten Realms: It's an ugly baby, but damnit it's our ugly baby.
WotC, please don't wreck the Forgotten Realms a third time in order to introduce the latest version of the D&D rules.
Give us back 3rd Edition's Magic Television concept instead.
Caolin, I think it's great that you're trying hard to get people to support the Realms novel line.
Now that some time has gone by and 4E has gotten older, I've read more Realms novels and found a few I enjoy.
I don't think you should give up so easily on the Realms (that is, Realms fandom). I think it's right for others to not purchase Realms novels or products that don't interest them and these are the people WotC should focus on.
However, anyone who dismisses a product simply because they're holding a grudge against WotC or tricked themselves into thinking "it's 4E, it must be bad" probably isn't someone WotC wants to keep as a customer anyway.
I hope you can see from the posts in this thread that people who don't buy current Realms novels don't necessarily fall into the later category.
Fortunately WotC has tried in the last couple of years to bridge the timeline gap and moved away from there insistence in leaving the past in the past. Ed Greenwood's Elminster's Guide to the Forgotten Realms and the layering of Realms history into current era novels (at least, in Ed's latest Elminster Trilogy) are mending things.
I agree that the Realms is worth supporting simply because it's the Realms. Hopefully people realize that whatever 4E's design origins and goals, things have already changed for the better and will continue to change.
The Forgotten Realms: It's an ugly baby, but damnit it's our ugly baby.
WotC, please don't wreck the Forgotten Realms a third time in order to introduce the latest version of the D&D rules.
Give us back 3rd Edition's Magic Television concept instead.
Speaking as someone who has never really bought many novels, WotC, Realms, or otherwise, and who greatly prefers non-fiction... I can't say I really care either way. If they do, great, if not, whatever.
Having said that, in general I would agree with Misc when he says that Elminster's Guide to the Forgotten Realms is a definite step in the right direction and a hopeful sign of things to come. But I also agree with others who are anti-Spellplague in that it was a horrendous decision that rippled negatively across the entire community, one way or another. It's effects on the meta-plot of the Realms aside, I don't think anyone can disagree that its impact on community relations has created an ugly rift that still leaves nerves raw and angry. And really, that's the worst part here, and it tends to poison things every time it rears its ugly head. That, for me, is what makes 4e such a horrible thing.
But on the other hand, it's also telling of the sorts of fans the Realms attracts to evoke such passion. Says a lot about Ed and the rest who've sheperded it along the years as well. I'm almost hopeful that Next/5e can salve some of the rancor and put the Realms back on course.
Novels, by their nature, change the individual characters in them.
What's the difference?
Let's take Drizzt as an example. He is an elf who survived through the 'plague and timejump.
All of his friends are dead. The other characters (the "Companions of the Hall") are now all dead - including Bruenor who recently met his end in a rather uncelebrated, non-epic and minor way. Drizzt has been miserable and broody, something of a lost soul, and his new "friends" (if one can call them that) are not supportive, heroic, or motivated by any of the principles expressed in the pre-plague books. This is perhaps an even darker time for Drizzt than his early life in Menzoberranzan because none of his current companions support or reflect his own values.
And don't forget, Drizzt firmly expressed his sadness about Eilistraee and her followers, believing that their efforts and sacrifices ultimately came to nothing. Is Drizzt wrong in that assessment? Think about it.
As a reader, it's extremely disheartening to read. I expected Drizzt to change and grow, but reading the current novels are depressing and he has ultimately regressed. RAS is an excellent author, so I am still reading them and liking them well enough to continue, but the charm of the other companions and Drizzt's nobility almost seem to be parodied. Was it all worth it, if Drizzt has to live in this dark new world? What's different about his experience in Menzoberranzan compared to his life in the post-cataclysm, post-volcano Neverwinter? It's killing, more killing, revenge, mourning the old days, missing his old noble companions, and then more killing. And apparently, Drizzt has had this same sad mood for the past 100 years.
Sure, it's still somewhat entertaining, but it's depressing to wade through and slowly killing my interest.
What is Drizzt without the Companions of the Hall? What would Arilyn be without her Danilo? What is Liriel without Fyodor? And yes, I know what happened to Fyodor at the end; frankly, I think it's a good thing we never got to see Liriel wandering around constantly depressed and mourning Fyodor like Drizzt has mourned the Companions.*
It's never just about the one that survivies when it comes to cataclysmic events. By the way, I do think Fyodor's end was poignant, important for the story, and necessary for Liriel's development, but that loss was an entirely different kind of thing and made Liriel grow.
Let's consider Cadderly's end story. For most of his life, Cadderly was a principled, cool guy serving a deity that had a noble purpose. At the end, Cadderly becomes someone who tortures demons (or was it a devil? but even so, torture? come on!) and then sacrifices his life for a deity that wasn't so much of a deity but a servitor-Exarch (or something equally minor) to Oghma. Thanks for reinforcing the concept, WotC, that some deities weren't what we - or even their priests - thought they were. And then, in a final and mostly meaningless gesture, Cadderly sacrifices his life for - for what, exactly? To somehow bolster something "metatexty" but extremely nebulous in one of the divine planes? Honestly, for a sacrifice to have any meaning, you have to see SOME effect in the world. We got nothing, really.
* having said this, I do think Cunningham could do an excellent follow-up on Liriel, but she'd have to introduce some new support characters.
All of his friends are dead. The other characters (the "Companions of the Hall") are now all dead - including Bruenor who recently met his end in a rather uncelebrated, non-epic and minor way.
Dude, Bruenor went one on one with a Pit Fiend.
I read that book. Even for non-gamers, soloing a Pit Fiend is hardly "non-epic".
Drizzt has been miserable and broody, something of a lost soul, and his new "friends" (if one can call them that) are not supportive, heroic, or motivated by any of the principles expressed in the pre-plague books. This is perhaps an even darker time for Drizzt than his early life in Menzoberranzan because none of his current companions support or reflect his own values.
.I've only read the first book in the series. I agree, Drizzt has fallen on hard times and is questioning his values.
Would you say the same is true for all elves in the Realms, though?
And that's really my point: characters change over time. That's not inherently a bad thing, even if everyone's favorite dark elf is having a rough go of it.
I appreciate, though, how seeing multiple characters go in a bad direction changes the tone of things. It's a different mood.
Thanks for reinforcing the concept, WotC, that some deities weren't what we - or even their priests - thought they were.
This I agree with. On the one had I like the attempt at a "big reveal" about a secret of the deities of the Realms, but on the other hand they (WotC) could have instead said that several deities of similar portfolios had to merge with each other to survive the Spellplague as opposed to saying the Spellplague laid bare the "truth of things" about the deities.
This is also my hoped-for lore fix regarding the deities in 5E.
That change did the Realms no favors. I, for one, ignore it.
The Forgotten Realms: It's an ugly baby, but damnit it's our ugly baby.
WotC, please don't wreck the Forgotten Realms a third time in order to introduce the latest version of the D&D rules.
Give us back 3rd Edition's Magic Television concept instead.
Caolin, I think it's great that you're trying hard to get people to support the Realms novel line.
Now that some time has gone by and 4E has gotten older, I've read more Realms novels and found a few I enjoy.
I don't think you should give up so easily on the Realms (that is, Realms fandom). I think it's right for others to not purchase Realms novels or products that don't interest them and these are the people WotC should focus on.
However, anyone who dismisses a product simply because they're holding a grudge against WotC or tricked themselves into thinking "it's 4E, it must be bad" probably isn't someone WotC wants to keep as a customer anyway.
I hope you can see from the posts in this thread that people who don't buy current Realms novels don't necessarily fall into the later category.
Fortunately WotC has tried in the last couple of years to bridge the timeline gap and moved away from there insistence in leaving the past in the past. Ed Greenwood's Elminster's Guide to the Forgotten Realms and the layering of Realms history into current era novels (at least, in Ed's latest Elminster Trilogy) are mending things.
I agree that the Realms is worth supporting simply because it's the Realms. Hopefully people realize that whatever 4E's design origins and goals, things have already changed for the better and will continue to change.
You're right. I'm just a little frustrated. I really REALLY enjoy reading Realms fiction. Sure, I have passed on a few novels over the years. But for the most part I read them all. So when I see any drop in novel output it makes me sad. And when I hear that they are going to base the future release schedule on one series that's going to change things again, well I kind of lose a little hope that people will support it.
I'm not trying to say that people should always support the Realms with purchases if they don't like what is being produced. But I consider this a special situation where if we all don't get behind this then we all will lose something we care about collectively.
And Iluvrien, my post was not directed at you. I have seen a lot of sentiments here and over at Candlekeep that reflect what I was refering to in my post. I stand by what I said in my post. But again, it is meant for this situation. I am trying to get people to stand up and say to WoTC that we do want more novels and they don't have to base it's future on one series of novels. But I am starting to see that I might be in a minority of people who actually care.
