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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 6:45PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2013
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Two nights ago, I was DMing a (rather large) group of my friends when I hit a snag between what one of my players wanted to do and what I as the DM would allow. The group was in a city seeking out people with connections to a thieves' guild when my friend Bryan asked where he could find kerosene or some other flammable agent so that he could burn down a brothel. He plays a human vampire (from the Heroes of Shadow player option) who, prior to his vampirism, was a priest for one of the city's churches. He reasoned that it was in his character's zealous nature to purge the sin and wickedness from his city. However, I didn't feel comfortable letting his character go through with that action. I reasoned that his character had enough insight to know that setting fire to one building could result in a sizable portion of the city burning down before the fire gets contained, but he still wanted to go through with it, arguing that his character wouldn't care if one scummy portion of the city was lost.
I was able to skim past the matter by throwing a skill challenge at the players, but the issue was never resolved. As a DM, I don't like shutting down my players' suggestions, but I don't know how to steer him away from a careless action without resorting to, "I'm the DM and you can't do that because I say so." What should I do if he presses the matter again in a future session?
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 7:14PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Aug 15, 2011
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Two options:
1. Simply state that such behavior is not appropriate for a PC in your game, because he will be committing murder.
2. Let him burn it ... have everybody in the brothel escape, and have the sparks and flames from the fire burn down a church representing his previous faith. If you want to be particularly heavy-handed about it.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 7:15PM
#3
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I want to say, "Let him commit mass murder and get in trouble for it, so that the other players have to either abandon him to the authorities or be wanted as accomplices everywhere they go," or at least have him get into a fight with somebody (one of the PC's?) who finds out before anything happens, ... unless the other players would enjoy role-playing their characters as not knowing that they're harbouring a mass murderer? EDIT: I got Ninja'd  And I had not thought about the fire spreading to the church, nice.
A character sheet is a player's love letter to the DM. If someone wants to do something and they want to do it well, let them. Encourage them. Have fun with it. -Unknown
An adventure is a DM's love letter to the players. If the DM wants something to happen in the game, let it. Encourage the DM. Have fun with it. -Centauri I'd love for input as to what it should be rather than arguments against why I shouldn't have it at all. -lialwyn Best defense that I've read in favor of having alignment systems as an option
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However, if some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.
I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?" than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" because the former posits that improvement could be made...the latter only undermines the enjoyment of the person who is using alignment. -YagamiFire
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 7:19PM
#4
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
- Sesquipedalian
Date Joined:
May 20, 2001
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If he's a vampire, he shouldn't be too keen on starting a fire.
As DM, I would let him do it. But then I'd force him to witness the carnage. People running and screaming.. Oh.. who's that running out of there? Is that one of the higher ups at his church?
Maybe the panicked crowd tramples some protestors from his church, who are actually helping put out the flames.
Perhaps a wagon full of hay ignites, the horses panic, and race right into the local oprhanage his church supports.
Don't forget, high level heroes might be in there, and can put the fire out quickly. They'd be interested in finding out just who started it.
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Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author's opinon an absurd effort at best considering the topic!).
It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. (AD&D) is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek the use of imagination and creativity....
In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which an fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously.
For fun, excitement and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed.As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe or even as a reflection of midieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the later must search elsewhere. - Gary Gygax. 1e DMG.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 7:24PM
#5
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I like the two previous posters suggestions.
Sounds to me like the player is abusing his background, and deity to perform this action.
I treat my D&D games like real like in the regard that these actions have consequences.
True the players may not like these consequences but they do occur when people do stuff like this.
Remember players and characters not one in the same.
A player should not be punished for coming up with these actions.
The character however depnding on the society they live in, should.
Now they player may take it personally. In fact its this irrational understanding that causes the most problems with situations like these. But if you have had consequences in your game previously they shouldn't expect anything different in this instance.
But no matter what you decide, talk to your players out-of-game and express your issues. Also hear what they have to say on the subject.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 7:42PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Mar 18, 2010
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I would deal with it in game for sure. And mention it out of game on a side-bar with said player to see if there were any lingering problems with your adjudication of the play.
DM: " I will be the tiny voice in your head right now telling you this might be a bad idea. Call it a slight bit of conscience, or even a self-preservation voice if you need to. Voice: 'If I burn this building down, what will happen to everything around the building - will it catch fire too? Is there a chance that there are innocents in or around that building that could be harmed? (or those who are attached to his church). '
And sure, his character might be a zealot, but that doesnt mean homicidal pyro-maniac. Though this is a fantasy world, try to immerse your player in to the world and put them there. If you were really in this position, would you choose to light this building on fire in broad daylight? Or even under cover of darkness, would you not rationalize that the authorities might find you after committing this crime? Plus, as a vampire, wouldnt he want to keep himself in a low-profile existence so as not to draw attention to his vampirism?
Where are the other PC's at? What are their opinions? Can they talk him down in game? Maybe you turn to them and say - "Your colleague has a gleam in his eye and begins muttering about burning all the sinners and eradicating the vermin from the plane. The brothel must burn burn burn.... What do you all do?" Get the team involved and see what they do. If they arent opposed to it, give a last reminder as to consequences. If they go through with it - let them do it. And make sure that they find out just how hard it is to get away with burning down a building and essentially murdering those in and/or around the brothel. Maybe you even play that out and come to find out a high ranking official owns the brothel and captures the PC's to bring them to justice or pay for their damages in some harsh way. Or they can TPK for resisting arrest.
You may during that side-bar want to set some ground rules for how that player will be playing his PC and truly define what he thinks being a zealot is and what his true mission for the church is. Remind him that even followers of the darkest deities dont go around wontonlly setting buildings ablaze.
Also keep in mind, this may be a situation where you arent providing enough action for this particular player. Typically when players want to burn things down, you may not be giving them their piece of the pie enough. While you dont want to cater a significant portion of your game to just this player - find ways to keep the player better "distracted" so these kind of thoughts dont enter in to play. If this is the case, maybe you send him coded messages from a mysterious source and give him "decoders" over the course of a few sessions. After decoding the messages, maybe you can tie it in with his previous church and his new purpose with it, or even something currently going on in the game.
Hope this helps!
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 8:37PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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DM: " I will be the tiny voice in your head right now telling you this might be a bad idea. Call it a slight bit of conscience, or even a self-preservation voice if you need to. Voice: 'If I burn this building down, what will happen to everything around the building - will it catch fire too? Is there a chance that there are innocents in or around that building that could be harmed? (or those who are attached to his church). '
This basically. Let him do it and suffer the consequences. We had someone in one of my games do something very similar and the rest of the party turned on him, turned him in and he was hanged. Then the player rerolled a new character with a little stronger sense of self-preservation.
Now the PCs should be able to clearly see the consequences of their actions to feel like they have agency. This should be both good and bad. They should get to participate in the victory parade after they help hold a borderland keep from the ravenous orc hordes. They should also have to face the piper if they murder a bunch of people.
Where are the other PC's at? What are their opinions? Can they talk him down in game? Maybe you turn to them and say - "Your colleague has a gleam in his eye and begins muttering about burning all the sinners and eradicating the vermin from the plane. The brothel must burn burn burn.... What do you all do?" Get the team involved and see what they do. If they arent opposed to it, give a last reminder as to consequences. If they go through with it - let them do it. And make sure that they find out just how hard it is to get away with burning down a building and essentially murdering those in and/or around the brothel. Maybe you even play that out and come to find out a high ranking official owns the brothel and captures the PC's to bring them to justice or pay for their damages in some harsh way. Or they can TPK for resisting arrest.
Make sure everyone at the table is weighing in on this matter for sure. Because that will help ensure that this decision (which is a pretty big one) is made by the group rather than one individual. The group decision can even be "Hey, if you do that we are going to hunt you down" and the PC can go through with it. But that one player better be prepared for either becoming the BBEG (and then being an NPC not a PC, so he will likely need a new character), or getting the axe.
I wouldn't immediately TPK them for resisting arrest but I would make it obvious if they were up against something they don't think they can face. Maybe the PCs will enjoy being the outlaw group in this area. If that is the path they want to take, then let them. Just make sure their actions have consequences that the PCs can see.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 10:47PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2006
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Oh, the fun to be had here.
Sure, dealing with the aftermath of a town threatening fire/mass-murder might not be what you'd envisioned doing in this portion of the campaign.... But it doesn't mean it can't be interesting!
So my vote? By all means, let him burn down the brothel!
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5 months ago ::
Jan 12, 2013 - 12:00AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2013
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I was just starting to think I should let him do it and suffer the consequences, and that sounds like the general consensus. And I'll definitely see what the other players weigh in on this action (although most of them opposed the brothel burning anyway). This might turn into a good opportunity to introduce a powerful mage NPC. Thanks for the help, everyone!
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5 months ago ::
Jan 12, 2013 - 12:34AM
#10
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I was just starting to think I should let him do it and suffer the consequences, and that sounds like the general consensus. And I'll definitely see what the other players weigh in on this action (although most of them opposed the brothel burning anyway). This might turn into a good opportunity to introduce a powerful mage NPC. Thanks for the help, everyone!
Good luck!
Let us know how it turns out.
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