On the part about taunt. Idea: what if they added a side bar next to the charmed condition that says the DM may rule that some named NPCs can not be Charmed or even swayed with simple Charisma checks.
As someone vehemently opposed to non-magical compulsions, this would be even worse. I really dislike when PCs and NPCs use different rules, so suggesting that some NPCs might have special NPC exemption based on plot armor is twice as repugnant.
Well if I had a player that insisted that taunt work exactly how it was written now, then I'd make use of a few NPC rogues with the taunt power. It would be fun to see they feel about it when their character is forced to charge.
Just as a point of clarification, you're not forced to charge. You're forced to move toward the taunter, and you have a choice of path so as not to be forced to run a gauntlet of opportunity attacks or not to be forced to swim through lava to get to him.
Yes, I shouldn't have used the word "charge", but you are correct you are "Forced", which stinks. Still I doubt the PC squishy (wizard) would appreciate being forced to walk out infront out of party formation when the tables are turned on the party.
The wizard being forced to walk out in front of the party formation assumes a certain placement of the wizard character. If the wizard character is 30 feet behind the party, they will not be in front of the party when they end their movement. Also, there is no reason why the party can't bar the wizard from moving through their square. Just because the PC's normally accommodate each other in this regard doesn't mean there is a rule against not allowing it. This means the wizard would have to walk around the party, which likely wastes a lot of their movement. Also, other PCs can ready an action to grab the wizard. There are a lot of built in ways to minimize the effect of the taunt ability.
Sure the party can stop him, but they may have already acted in the round. The Taunting rogue could also ready his action and strike at the right time, after the fighters in the front ranks have acted.
You get my point, I'm sure we don't need to go back and forth until we find the perfect set of events that you can't argue with.
And it may be that the casters have already burned their dispels. I get your point that there are times when it is just going to happen due to the dm designing the actions of every member of the enemy team so he can inflict it on the party intentionally, and that these instances are significantly lessened when the dm isn't actively doing that. I stand by my opinion that this ability is far less of an infraction on character control than a lot of magic spells have been.
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin." NPC: "Really?" Fighter: "Yes." NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?" Fighter: "I do." NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?" Fighter: "What?" NPC: "I don't know what it means either." Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do." NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics." Fighter: "These what?" NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
1) The retooling of the MDD and Maneuvers seemed like a step in the right direction. I like that maneuvers will be back to being fighter only as well.
I wasn't very happy about the MDD retool. Basing it off of the weapon's damage die makes the damage dice of the weapon too important.
Very much agreed.
This is a lesson it looked as though they learned but now appears they're going to throw away. What you're going to have is, again, just a handful of desirable weapons as most players will simply gravitate towards the highest die weapons in lieu of everything else. The d6 Martial Die opened up a whole range of character concepts as viable/desirable which they are now closing the door to.
That said, I quite enjoyed this Q&A and certainly can appreciate some of the reasoning behind their decisions. Definitely looking forward to seeing how multiclassing works (and I'm sure the CharOps are smacking their lips as we speak... ;-))
I also learned to look at taunt a little differently now and I think that "Lure" is probably a better term for it.
And while I'm not opposed to their idea of turning extra die damage into multiple attacks they will have to keep a close eye on weapons or abilities that allow you to impose conditions on each of those attacks.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Weapon choice should make some difference. And that difference needs to scale. They also shouldn't have 1d4 -> 1d12, which is about a 250% difference. That's too much. Fortunately, there are at least a few numbers between 0 and 250. Someone should start a poll...
I agree that weapon choice should make a difference, but that difference shouldn't be one of effectiveness. Rather it should be one of characterization.
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin." NPC: "Really?" Fighter: "Yes." NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?" Fighter: "I do." NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?" Fighter: "What?" NPC: "I don't know what it means either." Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do." NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics." Fighter: "These what?" NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
Weapon choice should make some difference. And that difference needs to scale. They also shouldn't have 1d4 -> 1d12, which is about a 250% difference. That's too much. Fortunately, there are at least a few numbers between 0 and 250. Someone should start a poll...
The way I see it, there are better ways to express those differences in weapon choices than just straight damage. Broaden out the "utility" Feats a la Warding Polearm, the Shield Feats and so on. This allows for more creative advantages to using certain weapons and then you can keep skill-based damage even for all weapons.
Those are good ideas, and i agree the current batch of properties isn't worth much, if any, damage difference (except finess, which should drop you a size). But i'd rather not spend a precious feat for it.
Polearms should come with warding, and cost a die size. spiked chain has warding and finess, and cost 2 sizes. ect...
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I disagree with Mike that Skill Die is faster to handle than Skill Bonus. Both need to be tracked, but Skill Die requires rollinga die, which adds an additional step in the process.
I prefer the term Opportunity Attacks and Skills to remain as is personally. None of my crew was confused after they learned how they worked.
In my opinion Taunt is just right and i definitly want more narrative defining ability of this sort in Next.
Glad to hear and agrees that Martial Damage is too high in its current form.
Glad to hear a new class release at Winter Fantasy Thanks for the tease :P
While i learned it was inacurate, i prefer longsword as one word XD.
Lastly, a big THANKS to Mike, Trevor and Jeremy for doing this live chat. Its a great way to share views and infos with the community and i really hope more Hangouts will be done in the future.
Those are good ideas, and i agree the current batch of properties isn't worth much, if any, damage difference (except finess, which should drop you a size). But i'd rather not spend a precious feat for it. Polearms should come with warding, and cost a die size. spiked chain has warding and finess, and cost 2 sizes. ect...
Certainly workable ideas. And another benefit to keeping skill based damage the same for all weapons is that damage becomes more predictable at higher levels and makes it a little easier to balance against.
And I think it's not a bad thing if a high level fighter might be a little less inclined to pitch that short sword of sharpness in the trash in lieu of a regular greataxe.
