I just dont see how you are going to produce rituals that are as iconic as Magic Missile when Magic Missile is a ritual.
Rory, I am really struggling to understand your point here, but I don't. That sentence I quoted makes no sense from a grammatical standpoint. If magic missile is iconic and a ritual, it is an iconic ritual. Could you explain what you mean?
As long as Im able to make a decent argument that rituals are metamagic I can grantee you that most discussions about rituals will evolve around exploits and min maxing.
Um... what? Are we designing the game aorund what you imagine conversations on the bus will be? How are the rest of us supposed to contribute to a conversation based on such... unusual criteria. You seem to be writing with lingo that you understand but I don't have the context to get.
See my response to Maxperson.
I did. I still have no idea what your point is with regard to balance.
I want what a few others have called for. I want them to be a real wing of magic that could almost carry a class. I want more mysticism and sacrifice. There is more but I'm still thinking about it.
Okay. I don't know what any of this means. Let me know when you've thought sufficiently about it that you can articulate it in a comprehensible manner for the rest of us.
Gold no, xp no, components can play a real part. Maybe not the fiddly variety.
So what components do you mean? I've only ever seen components be fiddly exercises in bookkeeping (bat guano and glass rods) or proxies for gold (residuum, "spell component bags", and "arcane components").
For now Im just pointing at something that doesnt jive right.
And I'd love to help you make it "jive". But I can't tell what the issue is.
The most I can figure out is that you think that the idea of ritualizing spells feels too much like "metamagic", in that it a generic rule for transforming spells to rituals is problematic. But I can't figure out why you think it.
You seem to think it would encourage optimization, but optimization is always a function of options. I can guarantee you that if we replace ritual rules with more spells, or ritual-only spells, people (on the bus and elswhere) will be working on optimizing them as well.
You seem to think it is too generic, but that would depend on the spells being ritualized. I also don't think you understood my point of non-generic spells, like Otto's Irresistable Dance. Spells that are insufficiently generic skew the flavor of a fanatsy world. The rituals and spells that are introduced into the game become the fabric of the game world. The less generic it is, the fewer fantasy worlds your game will accommodate.
I'm guessing that what you want is a bunch of rituals with very specific components (like Venus being in the second house, and having three threads woven by three blind sisters) to give it a lot of character. But those things should not exist in the game as a whole. It's just too fiddly and it makes no sense for most wizards to have such a ritual in their spellbook.
The really great news is that you don't even have to think of any. We've given you multiple reasons already.
Unreasonable reasons.
Nope. Keep trying, though. Your "one true way" crusade doesn't cut it here.
If people arent creating these rituals then its just metamagic on existing spells.
People ARE creating them and it's not metamagic, despite your unsubstantiated claims.
Sure you could find some eccentric individual who would take the time to ritualize fireball. Its not common enough to put in a core list. Its not even close to being common enough. No mage is going to walk around with components for something they would only use in extremely odd situations.
Just because it doesn't jive with your "one true way", doesn't mean that no mage will do it.
Im taking a step out of myself and looking at it from a general design point of view. The name Fireball is a horrible name for a Ritual. Why would anyone waste components and time to produce a ball of fire that gets thrown at a target many minutes after the ritual begins? If this is a Siege situation there are hundreds of better suited combat rituals like something that shields and protects, bolsters armies, loosens or topples structures, raises undead to the fight, or summons creatures and plagues.
Starts fires... Look, your "one true way" is not the only way. Other people deserve to have their playstyles catered to if they are common enough and it won't take up tons of room. A few sentences to ritualize combat spells is not a bad thing. You can ignore it.
What I want to know, is why you feel that your way be the only way to play things? Why should I and everyone else who wants a ritualized fireball not get it? You can just not use it if you don't like it.
So now you flood the ritual list with a lot of near useless rituals that werent created organically because no wizard would waste components, money and time on such a spell.
There is no list. Spells that are ritualized just have a few sentences at the end.
I want ritual casting to be more than metamagic so a player might invest character development into becoming a better ritual caster.
Ritual casting is what you make of it and the inclusion of ritual combat spells does not change that. You can simply say to your group, "No ritualized combat spells in my game."
Arcane casters are generally balanced for daily magic. If you give them the ability to cast every ten minutes to an hour then you have to balance that especially if its independent of metamagic.
The balance is for combat. Since rituals are for non-combat, combat spell rituals do not have to be balanced in that way.
People should be able to throw their voice at-will, without magic. I see no reason it would be OP for a mage. Expecially if it took longer to pull off, or he had to use a prepaired slot. People can lob balls of fire without magic. It takes longer to setup a catapult, but you'd get more distance, and could fire faster once you do. I see no reason it would be OP on a mage (who would be in bow range).
The spell does a lot more than throwing your voice. It speaks for them with their own voice and their own lips moving. Being able to spam it atwill means it would be very easy to start a fight with two guards, or get someone's tongue removed for bad mouthing the King.
just a point of view on this. its not that casting ritual spells is metamagic of regular casting. all wizardry started as rituals. a gathering of magical components and formulae to simulate the effects of spells and magic effects of the natural mages (creatures and sorcerers and whatnot). the spells per day for a wizard is when the wizard preprepares some components of a ritual (spell preparation) while substituting the rest of the spell with their own energy to insta cast the spell. this is why spells per day are limited based of the class level
The spell does a lot more than throwing your voice. It speaks for them with their own voice and their own lips moving.
What version of the spell are you using?! 3e's version does not specifiy it makes other people's lips appear to move. Nor does 4'e Prestigitation power. I don't recall either of AD&D's ventriloquism spells causing other people's lips to move.
Nope. Keep trying, though. Your "one true way" crusade doesn't cut it here.
Burning something, having orcs held up and sigecraft are not logical enough reasons for the spell to exist outside of the eccentric machinations of madman. True many wizards are indeed mad but keep the very odd flavorless stuff in mods. Fireball with any component cost is an idiot's or madman's ritual and a fringe case as metamagic.
People ARE creating them and it's not metamagic, despite your unsubstantiated claims.
Show me a 4e mod or a novel where a caster created a fireball ritual. If you had to do damage to a slow moving target like a house or a even siege equipment there are better ways with mundane stuff or even ritual magic. Casting fireball as a ritual is something that only some powerful OCD pyromaniac would think of.
Just because it doesn't jive with your "one true way", doesn't mean that no mage will do it.
Im sure in the imaginations of fantasy there are mages who would like to strip animals naked and collect furry suits out of their skin. Unless you want 2k spells you dont put stuff like that in the core books.
Starts fires... Look, your "one true way" is not the only way. Other people deserve to have their playstyles catered to if they are common enough and it won't take up tons of room. A few sentences to ritualize combat spells is not a bad thing. You can ignore it.
What I want to know, is why you feel that your way be the only way to play things? Why should I and everyone else who wants a ritualized fireball not get it? You can just not use it if you don't like it.
I already explained. Its inefficient design to balance every spell as a ritual especially spells that wont get use. If you disagree then you could at least give a better example than burning stuff. Knowing wotc rituals will continue to feel tact as refugee spells from AEDU. I'm saying cut the fat and make ritual spells that spellcasters In the setting would make. Give me a logic tree for the creation of a ritual.
There is no list. Spells that are ritualized just have a few sentences at the end.
That reads like a metamagic feat and would only be worth using without the component cost. If you are going to be a tad realistic then components are bought before the spell is cast. You have not explained why anyone would spend that money.
Imo rituals should have their own list. I know it doesnt exisit in Next but I expect it to just as it did in 4e. I'm not ready to explain what I want on that list. I can mainly tell you what I dont want.
Ritual casting is what you make of it and the inclusion of ritual combat spells does not change that. You can simply say to your group, "No ritualized combat spells in my game."
This is not a personal vendetta. I dont know anyone who wants to waste their character's money casting a range combat spell that takes 20 minns to shoot or throw. I want a better brand of ritual and I dont think we are going to get it when as Qmark states "Ritual" is just shorthand for "don't cast this in combat, you knob!".
I want rituals as a real wing of magic not just common spells of a different casting time. As long as the devs can just say rituals are spells that are ritualized then Qmark is right and that IMO is inferior to building rituals as a legit independent form of magic.
Lets say rituals had their own list with hand crafted 5e rituals. and a 'ritual master' could cast combat spells as rituals. I would not care. That is fine with me. I would know wotc took the time to make ground up rituals first before they added such a feat.
The balance is for combat. Since rituals are for non-combat, combat spell rituals do not have to be balanced in that way.
Are you saying you want combat rituals to be cast without cost and components because they arent used for combat? That is the only way they might work and if we even think about going there we are further from bringing casting time and components to spells. That walk gives the caster a boost that will have to be balanced. The other balance issue that I think is more important and more likely that wotc will miss is the rituals themselves. I'm sure you have played games that offer many options until you learn how many are inferior.
Burning something, having orcs held up and sigecraft are not logical enough reasons for the spell to exist outside of the eccentric machinations of madman.
What are your qualifications that allow you to decide that for all of us?
That reads like a metamagic feat and would only be worth using without the component cost. If you are going to be a tad realistic then components are bought before the spell is cast. You have not explained why anyone would spend that money.
We've explained it several times. Sticking your head in the sand doesn't change that fact.
Imo rituals should have their own list. I know it doesnt exisit in Next but I expect it to just as it did in 4e. I'm not ready to explain what I want on that list. I can mainly tell you what I dont want.
You still haven't explained why you should get what you want, but nobody else should.
This is not a personal vendetta. I dont know anyone who wants to waste their character's money casting a range combat spell that takes 20 minns to shoot or throw.
Great! Then you wont have an issue when you tell your group no. That's not a reason that I and my group shouldn't be able to.
I want rituals as a real wing of magic not just common spells of a different casting time. As long as the devs can just say rituals are spells that are ritualized then Qmark is right and that IMO is inferior to building rituals as a legit independent form of magic.
This, finally, is a legitimate argument. It doesn't exclude ritualizing fireball, but I agree with you that rituals should involve something more than an increased casting time and a bit of gold.
Lets say rituals had their own list with hand crafted 5e rituals. and a 'ritual master' could cast combat spells as rituals. I would not care. That is fine with me. I would know wotc took the time to make ground up rituals first before they added such a feat.
I see no reason why either one has to be first. They could very easily be done concurrently.
Are you saying you want combat rituals to be cast without cost and components because they arent used for combat?
No. I'm saying that they don't have to be balanced with combat in mind.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Rory, I am really struggling to understand your point here, but I don't. That sentence I quoted makes no sense from a grammatical standpoint. If magic missile is iconic and a ritual, it is an iconic ritual. Could you explain what you mean?
Its competition. Magic Missile and Sleep were on the short list of 1st level damage and debilitating spells. A shorter list of rituals without sharing stage with familiar spells will give them a more prominent role in the game. Magic Missile is iconic as a spell. As a ritual its just bloat. It also cheapens rituals if the best wotc can do is pad the list of rituals with stuff like slow casting Magic Missiles. If the core books have about five rituals per level and they are balanced so each one is relatively useful then they are more likely to resonate with people.
Um... what? Are we designing the game aorund what you imagine conversations on the bus will be? How are the rest of us supposed to contribute to a conversation based on such... unusual criteria. You seem to be writing with lingo that you understand but I don't have the context to get.
I'm in Seattle. If you ride the 545 Microsoft/Nintendo bus enough you will hear people chatting about games of all kind. One major thing that sparks people’s passion to the point where they are going geek mode in public is enlightenment or potential enlightenment. In games, enlightenment is the feeling that you can navigate through dynamic, and risky factors better than before. So imo for rituals to really become one of the positive aspects there needs to be enough depth and volatility to get people talking about them in a similar way as how mtg players talk.
I did. I still have no idea what your point is with regard to balance.
Rituals are not balanced when some are far more useful than others of the same level.
If every spell can be used as a ritual they will have to be balanced as such.
If I take your example and flux a little Navy Seal team Six to it I can see a good use for combat rituals. Lets assume Bin Laden wasnt held up with civies. Better yet I can use the Baldur's Gate example when you assault the Iron Throne in their tavern or simply juxtapose any situation where you are undercover and ready to attack first. Why not launch a Meteor Swarm ritual? With the right cover you can hide your intentions. In these situations the caster has a real advantage that would have to be balanced against other classes.
So what components do you mean? I've only ever seen components be fiddly exercises in bookkeeping (bat guano and glass rods) or proxies for gold (residuum, "spell component bags", and "arcane components").
I dont mind minor components as proxies for gold as long as they are backed by real items so the price fluctuates with the value. The larger question is how to relate major components and sacrifice. I dont want the party to have to go on a major component quest for every powerful ritual at the same time I want rituals to be more powerful than spells. Im thinking about having a component list that decreases and diversifies with ritual mastery.
And I'd love to help you make it "jive". But I can't tell what the issue is.
The most I can figure out is that you think that the idea of ritualizing spells feels too much like "metamagic", in that it a generic rule for transforming spells to rituals is problematic. But I can't figure out why you think it.
You seem to think it would encourage optimization, but optimization is always a function of options. I can guarantee you that if we replace ritual rules with more spells, or ritual-only spells, people (on the bus and elswhere) will be working on optimizing them as well.
You seem to think it is too generic, but that would depend on the spells being ritualized. I also don't think you understood my point of non-generic spells, like Otto's Irresistable Dance. Spells that are insufficiently generic skew the flavor of a fanatsy world. The rituals and spells that are introduced into the game become the fabric of the game world. The less generic it is, the fewer fantasy worlds your game will accommodate.
I'm guessing that what you want is a bunch of rituals with very specific components (like Venus being in the second house, and having three threads woven by three blind sisters) to give it a lot of character. But those things should not exist in the game as a whole. It's just too fiddly and it makes no sense for most wizards to have such a ritual in their spellbook.
While I was messing with the rules for martial classes and thinking about how polar opposite Fire Emblem is from Next I started to wonder what if Rituals were as martial stats in Fire Emblem. Just as a Knight in Fire Emblem focuses on DR what if a caster in Next focused on rituals. Would they then be more witchlike? Could an elite ritual caster help in combat?
Thats when I reexamined my thoughts on rituals. So after thinking about it I found issues and posted them as a basis to create alternative spells. My solutions are still green. I'm listening
Magic Missile is iconic as a spell. As a ritual its just bloat. It also cheapens rituals if the best wotc can do is pad the list of rituals with stuff like slow casting Magic Missiles. If the core books have about five rituals per level and they are balanced so each one is relatively useful then they are more likely to resonate with people.
How is it bloat? There's just a general rule, all spells are rituals, 10 mintues per level.
And how does it cheapen things? Rituals are even more versitile, now that you can spend 10 minutes to blast 2 coconuts out of a tree. Or 30 minutes to light a house on fire. There's more value, not less.
I mean sure, a fighter could climb the tree, and a rogue could throw a dagger, and both could just use flint. But a wizard should uses magic. Even if it takes him 3x as long.
Rituals are not balanced when some are far more useful than others of the same level.
If every spell can be used as a ritual they will have to be balanced as such.
The only regular spells i know of that may unbalance things as rituals are the cure spells. And you put an exception for those (heals upto X amount).
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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