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Jan 16, 2013 -- 1:20PM, Maxperson wrote:

So you in fact have no qualification. Good to know.

I have the most pertinent qualification. I asked the question.

You have no ability to determine as a fact that the reasons put forth are not good enough. You have no qualifications to do so. You have no authority to do so. Your OPINION is nothing more than an opinion with the same weight as anyone elses in this thread.

I didnt challenge your opinion. I challenged your reason. I asked for reasons and you gave one. So spare me about who is qualified and about everyone has opinions. Its just a waste of time and dodges the point.

So you don't understand what "concurrently" means. If done concurrently, your lack of faith in the devs is irrelevant.

Lacking faith in the developer's ability to go back and improve something that they have seemingly ignored so far is an irrelevant opinion yet I have to flash a Masters in game design to say that burning things isnt a reason to ritualize fireball?

If you went to spend 60 times as long to launch a sneak attack as it would take any other member of the party to launch a sneak attack, go for it. While you are chanting, the rest of the party has already gotten their suprise round and the fight is over

You determined that an enemy is operating out of an open compound in a large bustling urban area. You could perform the ritual in a nearby apt with assassins ready to scale the walls after a fireball is thrown over their wall.
As long as sound doesn't carry past the range of the spell it works.

Jan 16, 2013 -- 1:29PM, wrecan wrote:

Whoa. Hold on there, cowboy. I've been discussing your "reasons" and I saw nothing that was "similar" to anything I have written.

Your example and the Bin Laden complex are similar in how both enemies are at a fixed location.

Again, it only seems "not useful enough" to you. Plenty of us see utility in having a general ritualization rule. So why should your assessment of "not useful enough" trump ours?

Creating a ritual takes time and resources. I’m not saying that a ritual that mimics a fireball or even a slightly more powerful fireball is worthless I’m saying that the use isn’t common enough to where the setting’s populace would create them in great enough number to warrant inclusion on a core ritual list. 

As a utility to create fire it’s unpractical. As a combat spell it’s situational at best. As a hybrid of a ritual and metamagic its ok but I would still prefer to put it in a combat ritual feat path before we just give every caster free metamagic.

If the problem is lack in faith in the developers, this is like the most picayune way to express it. If you have no faith in the developers, there's no point to discuss game details. Just write the game off and find developers in whom you have faith.

But statements like thi always raise an eyebrow because they so totally don't match behavior. It leads me to believe that you simply can't articulate your problem or you're not interested in the issue. You just don't want the playtest to succeed so you're trying to convert people to your cause or disrupt the forums to prevent developers from getting productive feedback.

I'm going to go ahead and assume the issue is that you're havign trouble articulating your objections.

In a way you are reading too much into it. I have real objections with wotc and Hasbro. I have issues with 4e, the Spellplague and their complete mishandling of the videogame market and Atari. I was still relatively ok with Next until the recent update. My issue with the devs is more specific to the topic. IMO Rituals were to some extent created as a refuge for spells that didn’t fit the AEDU model and didn’t get enough attention as an independent wing of magic. This hasn’t improved with Next. Its worse because the spell list doesn’t include most of the ‘good’ rituals from 4e.  

Also, what I considered to be the two best classes were pulled for the drawing board. That doesn’t exactly inspire confidence.  I read that the Cleric was considered the most finished class. IMO the Cleric is the worse class in the game and the sorcerer and Warlock were the two best.

This is a playtest not a beta test. We are testing only the specific mechanics that the designers want feedback on. The playtest should be missing large swaths of the game.

True in principle. Its also true that the portions that are missing can tell us a bit about priorities and design goals.

Separately, I have no idea what "hardcoded ground up" means in this context. It seems once again like you're using that inside hipster lingo that only whose meaning only you understand.

Rituals that take more than ten minutes to cast. Rituals that read like they were created to be rituals Rituals that would consequently make poor spells.

For the fourth time, no you can't. The developers have said you will not be able to use rituals stealthily.

Maybe you should wait until I respond before you repeat yourself. I might have missed it once but I didn’t miss it three times. Also a developer’s definition of stealth and a player’s are different. A player is more likely to test such boundaries. Rituals make noise and take time but what if you have the time and you are in a noisy environment.

That said it makes little difference. It’s a corner case that I would be happy to let players attempt as long as they can keep the immediate crowed from discerning what is going on. Maybe they could hire a minstrel show to serve as a distraction or section off the place with some intimidating guards.

Jan 16, 2013 -- 5:00PM, wrecan wrote:

Rory,

You point out an issue, like problems with unlimited rituals, and throw up your hands and ask for it to be scrapped, even though everyone discussing this with you has given you numerous alternatives that don't involve scrapping the system. It's pretty clear that you're not interested in an honest exchange. You just want the system scrappd and you don't care what other people want or what other alternative there are.

I generally have a rule that I won't repeat myself three times in a discussion. I've already had to repeat myself four times with you. If you ever decide to engage in honest discussion, I'll still be here. You can go back through the thread and see how poorly you're treating people who have only been honest and cordial with you.

 

The system doesn’t currently allow for combat spells to be ritualized so I’m not looking to scrap what doesn’t exist.  If I wasn’t cordial with anyone it was Maxperson. Even with him I didn’t disavow his opinion I disavowed his reasoning or lack of. Mainly it was the lack of reasoning. ‘Burning something between encounters’ is the type of low criteria rationale that one could use to justify any design decision. That was a damn near Troll worthy response that I took as statement declaring that an actual reason was either too difficult to conceive or not worth his time.