What about this idea to try to balance out martial classes manuevers and caster classes spells: Give everyone "ability slots" like a caster. Either that or power points to spend (like 4e psions or the 5e sorcerer that was out for a bit).
As you level up in any class you will get slots that you can us to memorize spells or have "strength reserves." For casters, this will be just be their spells as classically done in 1-3.5e. For martial classes this will be their manuevers. The higher level that you put a manuever in the more of an effect that it will have. So Cleave in a level 1 slot may only do +1d6 + Str damge to nearby enemies, for example. At higher levels and in higher slots it will do more damage. So a Cleave in a level 3 slot could do +6d6 + Str to nearby enemies. Or maybe it could be a really good deflection, where you use a level 4 slot to deflect an attack's damage (reduce by 4d6) and bash the enemy off balance. Or maybe an Arrow of Slaying in a level 6 slot that gets +2d4 attack and +8d10 damage for archers. For rogues, things like sneak attach could scale with higher levels. In essence, just like a wizard is storing energy to cast that one really big spell, a rogue could be waiting for the one really good sneak attack where he give it his all.
If you don't want to do slots, then do power points per day. Lvl1 manuevers/spells cost 1 point, lvl2 costs 2, lvl3 costs 4, lvl4 costs 8, ect. Make it to were you know different manuevers/spells and learn more per level. Then, in combat or out, you can spend power points to use the abilities. The more points spent on a manuever the more powerful it becomes. Caster's spells will all have certain ranks that cost an exact amount of power points. Enemies could have this as well. Some classes, like a psion or something, will have the ability to either transfer or steal power points from others, and some attacks will be so brutally draining on the enemy that they will eliminate enemy power points. I personally like this system and think that it has a lot of potentional. The number of power points given could be determined from a base at level up + some stat modifier (Int for wizards, Wis for clerics, Str for warriors, ect.)
Make a diverse list of manuevers (there's already a pretty good start), both offensive and defensive, and give all classes "ability slots" to be able to "cast" their stored energy. That will help out with balancing damage issues, give variety and strategy to how you play a character, and make it so that people will actually WANT to have more slots or power points to "cast" things, instead of taking away caster's slot because they are "overpowered."
pretty sure they tried this concept with 4th ed. and the main complaint was that all classes feel exactly the freaking same
Which was a completely unfounded and ridiculous complaint, because that wasn't the case. But haters gonna hate.
True. In 4th ed our wizard always does things that feel completely different from the mundane classes (Arcane gate stands out). The wizard can change the whole nature of the fight in a way that my ranger cannot. But I still would like to see the possible of martial froms of influence - so I like to see a much greater choice of maneuvers with significant impacts especially for higher level martial types - for those who want this of course.
pretty sure they tried this concept with 4th ed. and the main complaint was that all classes feel exactly the freaking same
Which was a completely unfounded and ridiculous complaint, because that wasn't the case. But haters gonna hate.
I disagree. If two classes use the exact same mechanics for executing their abilities, even if the abilities have nothing in common, the two stell feel exactly the same to me. Cleave and other similar combat options already have tactical conditions for use, they shouldn't be artificially limited by slots as well.
What about this idea to try to balance out martial classes manuevers and caster classes spells: Give everyone "ability slots" like a caster. Either that or power points to spend (like 4e psions or the 5e sorcerer that was out for a bit).
This is exactly why I never liked Psions. Martial classes should NEVER play the same as caster classes because they will have fundamentally different capabilities. Why should fighters have access to something that works like Cloud Kill? You shouldn't make the classes more or less interchangeable in combat or out of combat because that removes the point of them being different.
The balance exists in the form of scope vs. frequency of use. Wizard spells typically have a much greater scope than martial abilities. I had an Aranea effectively one-shot a PC the other night with Charm Person. A fighter's parry however, doesn't help him much outside of situations where he's being attacked.
Learning to play your class well is part of the fun of Dungeons & Dragons. Using your specific party makeup to overcome challenges is also part of the fun. If you make all classes more or less interchangeable in how they play, you runk the risk of reducing the fun. The classes should not be readily interchangeable, period.
There's no reason to limit martial abilities frequency of use, so instead their scope is limited. Wizards on the other hand have spells with a much larger scope of potential uses, but their frequency of use is limited
pretty sure they tried this concept with 4th ed. and the main complaint was that all classes feel exactly the freaking same
Which was a completely unfounded and ridiculous complaint, because that wasn't the case. But haters gonna hate.
You are very wrong, people's priorities are different. Maybe you and your group don't care that much about the similarity on the underlying class mechanics as long as everyone gets to do different stuff (powers having different effects), but there are most certainly people that were upset with all classes sharing the AEDU power mechanic.
The problem here is basically the same, you pretty much want to give the warrior "martial spells", but we'd end up basically all playing wizards with different spell lists and weapon/armor profs, and while some people wouldn't have a problem with that as long as their different spell lists make them that they have their own flavor and are feeling they they fill different roles.
But the people that complained that 4th ed classes felt exactly the freaking same would be angry again.
I see where OP is coming from and I agree with him in some ways, but I honestly believe that Wizards needs to at least consider developing a distinct daily resource systems for most classes and try to balance their power and utility level.
I'd hate this. Like others are saying, it makes me think of 4e classes feeling all the same. Besides, I don't see why Billy Bob, level 3 fighter of the royal army should be able to cast spells. Did he spend years studying spells? No he didn't. Does he possess the blood of a powerful ancestor? Nope. Did he make a pact? He has morgage to cover I guess. So why can he cast spells?
I think that some of you are getting completely confused on what I was saying. A warrior wouldn't have the ability to cast a wizard's spell. He'd have his own range of abilities (cleave or power blow, for example). He would never get magic missle or burning hands, for example. But as his moves are always determined by the range of his weapons, they would most likely be a bit stronger than a wizard's, since he can stand back out of danger. The main point, however, that I was getting at is that it's completely unfair to severly limit actions other than a basic attack (ray of frost) that a caster can do but give martial classes infinite uses of their damage dice. There is a complete inbalance in game mechanics there.
I do agree with the posters that say every class would start to feel the same. Whether it's a "martial spell" or a "wizard spell," the game mechanics would feel the exact same for all classes in the end. Though that isn't necessarily a bad thing, concidering that every game (video or table top) has a degree of similarity in it somewhere (usually in the combat).
I think that one of the great things that testing this out is that you give the martial class players a glimpse at why the caster class players are so frustrated right now. It's not an issue about who's the ultimate badass, it's an issue of choices in and out of combat. Martial dice are infinite usage, and thus offer different actions each round. Spells are not. With so very, very few spells to choose from, combat from wizards devolves into martial class fighting, but without the martical dice. If you forced this upon everyone, you'd soon get both sides sympathysing with eachother that there just isn't enough options as things stand and that something needs to be done about it.
I gave two different ideas, but I'd love to hear other, possibly viable ones.
I like the middle ground that wizards has made with maneuvers. They're at-will abilities so they clear away the daily/encounter dilemma that 4e had, and they add battlefield utility. However, I hope they add more in the finished product, which I'm sure they will."
