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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 9:25AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2007
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I for one will be sticking to the original system as it is more familiar to me. I personally do not like the new saving throw system, initiative, AC, to hits etc. I am sure D&D 4e is a fantastic game for newer players to wrap their minds around but when I have played it since 1979, I find the old rules, tables, and fighting styles are just fine. I Dungeon Master for groups all the time and I try to also keep in mind what the players themselves want to play and for us older gamers its the old stuff. D&D 4e and D&D 2nd edition are two totally different games and there is room for the love of both of them.
It isn't just newer players that prefer 4E. I've been playing and DMing since 1979, and 4E is my preferred edition.
Part of this is due to the fact that I strayed from D&D quite a bit. Hero System, Storyteller, GURPS, Runequest, WEG d6 System, etc. My relationship with D&D was never exclusive, but I always kept bringing the good ideas from other games back and incorporating them into D&D. As D&D editions changed, they also incorporated refinements in game design, and I adopted those editions. 4E, for me, is the most modern and advanced version of D&D to date (advanced not necessarily meaning complex, just that it drew on 35 years of experience designing and playing roleplaying games).
Not that I begrudge anyone their favorite editions, just pointing out that 4E is not a symptom of "kids these days."
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 10:35AM
#22
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I for one will be sticking to the original system as it is more familiar to me. I personally do not like the new saving throw system, initiative, AC, to hits etc. I am sure D&D 4e is a fantastic game for newer players to wrap their minds around but when I have played it since 1979, I find the old rules, tables, and fighting styles are just fine. I Dungeon Master for groups all the time and I try to also keep in mind what the players themselves want to play and for us older gamers its the old stuff. D&D 4e and D&D 2nd edition are two totally different games and there is room for the love of both of them.
One quick question... Why are you on the 4e general Discussion if you don't like the game? For real what is up with that?
He did address some of the differences, which is the topic. He also chose to opine on how he doesn't like 4e and prefers 2e, because of the differences with 2e that he is familiar with. Nothing wrong with that. I mean, he only did ONE post, and he's welcome to insert his opinion as long as it's on topic.
No, I completely understand that he is justified in sharing his opinion but why is he here? In 4e general discussion... And its his first post. If I didn't know better it seems like a troll/baiting attempt. Just because I don't like 2e (IMO its a crappy 1e knockoff with Gary's name completely stripped from it, that and TSRs CEO at the time...) doesn't mean I'm gonna head over to Dragonsfoot and tell them about it with my first post. Also assuming that 4e is easier to wrap your mind around it a bit stupid. Its just not overly self contradictory like AD&D is.
Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community. “The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear.” - H. P. Lovecraft Games I Play: - D&D 4e - D&D 3.0 (Not 3.5) - AD&D 2e - Call of Cthulhu
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 10:36AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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I'm in the same boat as you MalakLightfoot and agree 100% with what you said.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 4:10PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2001
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I for one will be sticking to the original system as it is more familiar to me. I personally do not like the new saving throw system, initiative, AC, to hits etc. I am sure D&D 4e is a fantastic game for newer players to wrap their minds around but when I have played it since 1979, I find the old rules, tables, and fighting styles are just fine. I Dungeon Master for groups all the time and I try to also keep in mind what the players themselves want to play and for us older gamers its the old stuff. D&D 4e and D&D 2nd edition are two totally different games and there is room for the love of both of them.
Tell that to Mearls, he seem to think it can be done...he is wrong, thought...he just discarded the entire 4e demography to make his personal game.
We agree on something. I'm leaning towards discarding the 3.5 and 4th ed demography. Mealrs likes 2nd ed alot but IDK if he can figure out why we liked 2nd ed. Remake 2nd ed and make it d20 based and steamline the rules is better than D&DN.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*
*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 17, 2013 - 2:15PM
#25
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I for one will be sticking to the original system as it is more familiar to me. I personally do not like the new saving throw system, initiative, AC, to hits etc. I am sure D&D 4e is a fantastic game for newer players to wrap their minds around but when I have played it since 1979, I find the old rules, tables, and fighting styles are just fine. I Dungeon Master for groups all the time and I try to also keep in mind what the players themselves want to play and for us older gamers its the old stuff. D&D 4e and D&D 2nd edition are two totally different games and there is room for the love of both of them.
It isn't just newer players that prefer 4E. I've been playing and DMing since 1979, and 4E is my preferred edition.
Part of this is due to the fact that I strayed from D&D quite a bit. Hero System, Storyteller, GURPS, Runequest, WEG d6 System, etc. My relationship with D&D was never exclusive, but I always kept bringing the good ideas from other games back and incorporating them into D&D. As D&D editions changed, they also incorporated refinements in game design, and I adopted those editions. 4E, for me, is the most modern and advanced version of D&D to date (advanced not necessarily meaning complex, just that it drew on 35 years of experience designing and playing roleplaying games).
Not that I begrudge anyone their favorite editions, just pointing out that 4E is not a symptom of "kids these days."
No kidding, I first played in 1975, I still like 4e better than anything that came before it. I don't really understand why the details of rules are something to get all caught up in. Its all about having fun playing and creating characters and stuff. I could care less how you roll saves as long as it is easy and sensible, and FORT/REF/WILL is WAY easier and more sensible than 'classic' D&D saves, which were completely arbitrary, for example.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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5 months ago ::
Jan 22, 2013 - 8:52PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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I am sure D&D 4e is a fantastic game for newer players to wrap their minds around but when I have played it since 1979, I find the old rules, tables, and fighting styles are just fine. I Dungeon Master for groups all the time and I try to also keep in mind what the players themselves want to play and for us older gamers its the old stuff.
It isn't just newer players that prefer 4E. I've been playing and DMing since 1979, and 4E is my preferred edition.
No kidding, I first played in 1975, I still like 4e better than anything that came before it.
I started in 1980 and can certainly see that 4e is the best of the bunch to date. I think a lot of it has to do with the attitude you have towards the game. If you're nostalgic for the time/youth when you used to play, only the old stuff will do. If you've invested a lot in 'mastering' a particular system and don't want to do it again, you stick to that system. If you play a lot of different games, picking up a new edition is no big deal, you pick up new games every year.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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5 months ago ::
Jan 23, 2013 - 6:13AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2004
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I don't really understand why the details of rules are something to get all caught up in. Its all about having fun playing and creating characters and stuff.
Pretty much this.
Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade." "Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall, "But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling Defenders: We ARE the wall! I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D. Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e! I am a hero, not a chump.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 23, 2013 - 10:17AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2008
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I don't really understand why the details of rules are something to get all caught up in. Its all about having fun playing and creating characters and stuff.
Pretty much this.
Some people have fun by learning and using the rules to the best of their ability and there's nothing wrong with that. I personally don't understand why some people get all caught up with roleplaying shopping for clothes for five hours straight. I've seen it happen. Anything can be taken to excess, I guess.
But I'm in agreement with Abdul - I like 4e the best. And I've been playing since about 1980.
But to each their own! 
OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player.
3E challenged the character, not the player.
Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM.
That's why I love 4E.
"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."
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5 months ago ::
Jan 27, 2013 - 4:21AM
#29
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Not to post some "Here be monsters" links, but I find 1d4chan's descriptions of the two systems to be fairly comprehensive. AD&D and 4th Edition are both very particular breeds. It's also important to note that, in addition to the rage controversy of the systems, significant changes were made to the background settings. AD&D had Greyhawk as it's default setting and produced material for The Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, and so on. LOTS of material. AD&D probably has more fluff than 3rd and 4th Edition's have, combined. With 3rd Edition, additional material was printed to update the rules and monsters for The Forgotten Realms only, which was also received a setting update to mesh with the new rules system. These changes did not cause very much upset, but neither were they heralded with loving joy from the fan base. As no other setting received a significant rules or history update to facilitate widespread 3rd Edition play. Instead of Greyhawk as the default setting, 3rd Edition's world was as generic as possible with a Planescape cosmology. 3rd Edition (3.5 technically) also saw the launch of Wizard's own setting Ebberon. Ebberon was and remains popular though it is not a traditional Sword & Sorcery sharing much in common with Steampunk and Wild West settings. Unfortunately, (for those of us who like our Sword & Sorcery settings to remain such) this lead to cross contamination as people wanted to play robots non-traditional species and character types where they were out of place. 4th Edition made massive changes to the fluff of it's combat and to the established settings that it was supporting, Ebberon and The Forgotten Realms making them near to unrecognizable. To those of us who cling to the glut of AD&D material on The Forgotten Realms and these other settings, the post-AD&D fluff changes are both disquieting due to the "perversions" of their updates and make it harder to run older settings that were never updated. Now to be fair there is an element of nostalgia to this love of older settings, however changes in writers, writing styles, and management could be said to have also contributed.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 2:04PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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3rd Edition's world was as generic as possible with a Planescape cosmology.
3e's default setting was Greyhawk, which was not exactly generic, and Planescape's cosmology was anything but generic, having a complex set of named alignment-associated outer-planes, specific inner planes, and politics and power structures linking them all together with Sigil as a nexus and the Blood War as a handy source of conflict.
4e assumed a generic setting, characterized as 'Points of Light' - a world in which darkness was ascendent, but some outposts of good remained, and heroes (the PCs) were on the rise. Not a setting, so much as a vague suggestion of a sort of setting. Similarly, the 'World Axis' cosmology, was a more generic aproach than the Planescape one, without a fixed set of alignment-associated planes, elemental planes, and so forth, instead have the usual myriad of parallel 'real worlds,' with light & dark other-worlds, and the rather formless Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos holding whatever heavens & hells might be envisioned.
4th Edition made massive changes to the fluff of it's combat and to the established settings that it was supporting, Ebberon and The Forgotten Realms making them near to unrecognizable.
There's no question FR got a shock treatment, but then it had been a world dominated by magic in a way that the new game didn't automatically imply the way the old one did, and shifting it to the 'points of light' theme, so there'd be things for PC heroes to do, meant dismantling it's coteries of uber-mages and generally making it a less settled world.
Ebberon, OTOH, with it's concept of being a sort of universal D&D setting in which all races, classes, and so forth had a place, just expanded a bit, making room for Dragonborn and the like. If anything, Ebberon's existing cosmology meshed more easily with the more generic & flexible World Axis than it had with Planescape.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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