Your entire post supported by point, so there was no need to quote it.
The Traditionalists get what they want. The non-Traditionalists also get what they want. The Traditionalists have nothing to complain about, because they got what they want.
I'm not trying to argue for traditionalists. Sure, my posts are a tad cynical tinged, but I'm fighting for multiple options. If you read my blog post, I want to make compromise so this way, everyone gets what they want to play. If you continue to skew and warp my posts to fit a bias I don't have, then I wish you a good day and leave it at that.
I'm not trying to argue for traditionalists. Sure, my posts are a tad cynical tinged, but I'm fighting for multiple options. If you read my blog post, I want to make compromise so this way, everyone gets what they want to play. If you continue to
Your entire post supported by point, so there was no need to quote it.
The Traditionalists get what they want. The non-Traditionalists also get what they want. The Traditionalists have nothing to complain about, because they got what they want.
I'm not trying to argue for traditionalists. Sure, my posts are a tad cynical tinged, but I'm fighting for multiple options.
As am I.
If you read my blog post, I want to make compromise so this way, everyone gets what they want to play. If you continue to skew and warp my posts to fit a bias I don't have, then I wish you a good day and leave it at that.
And good day to you as well.
I'm not trying to argue for traditionalists. Sure, my posts are a tad cynical tinged, but I'm fighting for multiple options.[/quote]As am I.And good day to you as well.
I'm not supporting, just stating that Wizards invests in what they think will earn the most $$. This may be right or wrong, but hey, it's the reason why we haven't seen any support for Spelljammer, Birthright, FR sub-settings, Ravenloft, Planescape, Greyhawk, Mystara, Blackmoor, etc... They think these settings are done and it's likely we'll never see support for them ever again. That's business for you, I'm not fond of the way things are run.
It is a smart business decision to capitalize on the millions of Tolkien-fanboys in the 12-17 year age group. Get them started on tolkien and graduate them to Eberron.
It is a smart business decision to capitalize on the millions of Tolkien-fanboys in the 12-17 year age group. Get them started on tolkien and graduate them to Eberron.
The core game should appeal to a wide variety of players, which means we need a variety of races, classes et cetera.
WotC does not stand for 'Warmed Over Tolkien Crap'.
If you don't want to use them, don't use them. I will continue to not use humans in my games; you can certainly choose to remove dragonborn if you so desire.
Funny how the most popular movie in the country for the past few weeks has been "Warmed over Tolkien Crap"
There is a wide audience of people who LIKE that trope and expect it from a core game the associate with that type of fantasy.
I know it's "cool" and "hip" to be an RPG hipster with all of these outlandish races and a character "build" that no one else has, but millions of people flock to those movies and making a game that they can feel right at home in is paramount to making it successful.
If I go to Lord of the Rings and want to pick up a fantasy game that I hope is about Dwarves, Elves, Hobbits, and dragons and its filled with metal automatons, elemental-humanoids, and crystal people I'm going to be upset.
Core is Core. Those races are traditional core and can resonate with the largest audience of people. Not the niche of D&D players who find those races to be boring retreads...chances are they are so jaded they aren't going to buy the game anyways.
Here's the thing: If only the Tolkien races are there, only people who like those races can play. Win-lose. If the Tolkien races AND less traditional races are included, then more people can play. Win-win.
More people playing is the point of 5e; to allow everybody to play D&D they way they want to. They MUST include everything to realize that goal. You can simply choose to exclude those elements you do not like.
I will put this in bold so perhaps you might actually read it for once. Please attempt to comprehend. You can choose to exclude those elements you do not want. It does not matter AT ALL if Dragonborn, Warforged, or anything else you do not like are in the initial PHB. 'Core' does not, and never has, meant 'mandatory inclusion in all games'.5e is supposed to be inclusive, not exclusive.
I am glad you bolded the part I want to discuss. It should read, "You," as in you and you alone, not others, can choose to exclude those elements from your game. For many, the only place to play is a game store or convention. Guess what they use: the CORE!
So you telling someone to simply ignore this rule or that race is more limiting to some people's games as it is to say, "Put it in a splat book."
Funny how the most popular movie in the country for the past few weeks has been "Warmed over Tolkien Crap"There is a wide audience of people who LIKE that trope and expect it from a core game the associate with that type of fantasy. I know it's "cool
Your entire post supported by point, so there was no need to quote it.
The Traditionalists get what they want. The non-Traditionalists also get what they want. The Traditionalists have nothing to complain about, because they got what they want.
Non traditional is usually splatbook material. I would not add races from Spelljammer or Darksun to the core rules for example. Its easier to add stuff than take stuff away.
Warforged in the core rules or races with spell like/supernatural abilities more or less indicate the core rules are for a high magic world and that is going to irk the popel who prefer a low magic world. Thta sort of thing should probably be up to the DM and those who want a low/high magic world can wait for supplments. If they don't want to wait oh well.
Excluding stuff in home games is fine, warforged in a core book though will have them turning up in organised play, prepublished adventures etc.
Non traditional is usually splatbook material. I would not add races from Spelljammer or Darksun to the core rules for example. Its easier to add stuff than take stuff away. Warforged in the core rules or races with spell like/supernatural abilities
That's fine. I agree. Problem is, there are only so many players. Many times people sit down to play it is not with their good friends they've played with for 20 years. It is with someone that wants to play a vampire or crystalized race, and that breaks the continuity and/or playstyle of other players.
That's fine. I agree. Problem is, there are only so many players. Many times people sit down to play it is not with their good friends they've played with for 20 years. It is with someone that wants to play a vampire or crystalized race, and that
As long as the DMs are held to strict rule. When I DMed some of the "Underdark" seasons of encounters, I house ruled the hell out of it! I allowed any Realms themed character class/theme/whatever and worked with players to reflavor other things to be Realmsian... thus allowing pretty much everything.
As long as the DMs are held to strict rule. When I DMed some of the "Underdark" seasons of encounters, I house ruled the hell out of it! I allowed any Realms themed character class/theme/whatever and worked with players to reflavor other things to
I have nothing against making more than one book for races although with 4th ed they had way too many splat books. I don't think you should include every race but you should have the human, elf, perhaps a few half races and the gnome, halfling, and the dwarf along with several more exotic races such as the tiefling and maybe the more angelic race. Its up to the DM to make the decision what he/she allows in his/her game itself. Just because you hate something doesn't mean it should be excluded from the book.
I have nothing against making more than one book for races although with 4th ed they had way too many splat books. I don't think you should include every race but you should have the human, elf, perhaps a few half races and the gnome, halfling, and t
That's fine. I agree. Problem is, there are only so many players. Many times people sit down to play it is not with their good friends they've played with for 20 years. It is with someone that wants to play a vampire or crystalized race, and that breaks the continuity and/or playstyle of other players.
My reaction to that is to say 'mind your own character'. What other people choose to play is their business.
It comes back to the buffet analogy. It makes no sense to me to spaz out because someone else is eating something I don't like. If they like it, they can have it.
I hate the Tolkien races. I really do. I think they're trite, cliche', dull and overdone. I won't play one. But I couldn't care less if I sit down with people playing a human, an elf, a dwarf, and a halfling. That's their business, not mine. Their character, not mine. I have no right to say anything about it.
That's fine. I agree. Problem is, there are only so many players. Many times people sit down to play it is not with their good friends they've played with for 20 years. It is with someone that wants to play a vampire or crystalized race, and that
That's fine. I agree. Problem is, there are only so many players. Many times people sit down to play it is not with their good friends they've played with for 20 years. It is with someone that wants to play a vampire or crystalized race, and that breaks the continuity and/or playstyle of other players.
My reaction to that is to say 'mind your own character'. What other people choose to play is their business.
It comes back to the buffet analogy. It makes no sense to me to spaz out because someone else is eating something I don't like. If they like it, they can have it.
I hate the Tolkien races. I really do. I think they're trite, cliche', dull and overdone. I won't play one. But I couldn't care less if I sit down with people playing a human, an elf, a dwarf, and a halfling. That's their business, not mine. Their character, not mine. I have no right to say anything about it.
You would be in a minority then and like it or not WoTC is a corporation so they need to sell to as amny people as possible. The Hobbit is a cliche but millions of people are paying money to see it. I usually do not use the default assumptions in my home games but if I was selling D&D for a living cliche here I come!!!.
That's fine. I agree. Problem is, there are only so many players. Many times people sit down to play it is not with their good friends they've played with for 20 years. It is with someone that wants to play a vampire or crystalized race, and that
That's fine. I agree. Problem is, there are only so many players. Many times people sit down to play it is not with their good friends they've played with for 20 years. It is with someone that wants to play a vampire or crystalized race, and that breaks the continuity and/or playstyle of other players.
My reaction to that is to say 'mind your own character'. What other people choose to play is their business.
It comes back to the buffet analogy. It makes no sense to me to spaz out because someone else is eating something I don't like. If they like it, they can have it.
I hate the Tolkien races. I really do. I think they're trite, cliche', dull and overdone. I won't play one. But I couldn't care less if I sit down with people playing a human, an elf, a dwarf, and a halfling. That's their business, not mine. Their character, not mine. I have no right to say anything about it.
You would be in a minority then and like it or not WoTC is a corporation so they need to sell to as amny people as possible. The Hobbit is a cliche but millions of people are paying money to see it. I usually do not use the default assumptions in my home games but if I was selling D&D for a living cliche here I come!!!.
And so I point out the fate of every niche audience in existence (Still waiting on Spelljammer and Planescape, lol) It's like with Crytek. They KNOW they can push out another Crysis game, but one of the reasons we aren't getting another TimeSplitters is because it's a niche audience (which makes me sad), but that's business for you. It's not a happy world and tons of folks get left in the dust more often than not. HOWEVER, there is a chance that DDN will accomodate multiple modules if enough people use the power of voice. There's still hope that DDN will have options for everyone, after all. Combine the base with the niche and you have an expansive audience.
That's fine. I agree. Problem is, there are only so many players. Many times people sit down to play it is not with their good friends they've played with for 20 years. It is with someone that wants to play a vampire or crystalized race, and that
You would be in a minority then and like it or not WoTC is a corporation so they need to sell to as amny people as possible. The Hobbit is a cliche but millions of people are paying money to see it. I usually do not use the default assumptions in my home games but if I was selling D&D for a living cliche here I come!!!.
Hating the tolkeinish tropes may well be a minority but having the attitude that you shouldnt be selfishly pressing others in to your one true fantasy style... is something I hope isnt quite so minority.
Hating the tolkeinish tropes may well be a minority but having the attitude that you shouldnt be selfishly pressing others in to your one true fantasy style... is something I hope isnt quite so minority.
Garthanos the thing is though some things are so diametrically opposed to each other there is no middle ground. I like Spelljammer and Planescape and I do not feel my gaming needs are being neglected and I know they are probably not popular enough to exist by themselves. Well Planescape maybe, Spelljammer probably not.
I have no expectation that Warforged will be a core race and I am happy to wait for Eberron. AFAIK the designers have already indicated what classes and races are going to be in the core rules for next- all the PHB1 classses and races. They are also indicating they have a new class as well so now we're up to 15 classes in core.
Plenty of 3.5 races did not make it to 4th ed, some 2nd ed races did not make it to 3rd. I doubt alot of 4th ed races will make it to D&DN. I don't think we will be seeing Deva's again or at least anytime soon.
As I said I don't care what they put in a splat. They can put android pirate ninjas in splats with laser beams on sharks for all I care. If you like that sort of thing go for it. I don't like Ravenloft but if they want to make it again it doesn't bother me and I don't care if DarkSun/Spelljammer/Planescape and various other settings do not make it. I'll wait and hopefully I will get something I like.
Garthanos the thing is though some things are so diametrically opposed to each other there is no middle ground. I like Spelljammer and Planescape and I do not feel my gaming needs are being neglected and I know they are probably not popular enough to
Garthanos the thing is though some things are so diametrically opposed to each other there is no middle ground.
Sorry not seeing those middle grounds ... is what it is.
And Warforged arent that fringy to me. For Instance, for me there are fantasy archetypes which Warforged invoke ranging from D&Ds Gollums to Animated Suits of Armor alah Full Metal Alchemist.
Sorry not seeing those middle grounds ... is what it is.And Warforged arent that fringy to me. For Instance, for me there are fantasy archetypes which Warforged invoke ranging from D&Ds Gollums to Animated Suits of Armor alah Full Metal Alchemist.
You would be in a minority then and like it or not WoTC is a corporation so they need to sell to as amny people as possible. The Hobbit is a cliche but millions of people are paying money to see it. I usually do not use the default assumptions in my home games but if I was selling D&D for a living cliche here I come!!!.
This is why I'm not saying 'drop halflings from the game', like, oh, OTHER people in this thread are saying about races (even though, as you have surmised, I couldn't care less if they did). If someone wants to play a halfling, let 'em. By the same token, if someone wants to play a Warforged, let 'em.
This is why I'm not saying 'drop halflings from the game', like, oh, OTHER people in this thread are saying about races (even though, as you have surmised, I couldn't care less if they did). If someone wants to play a halfling, let 'em. By the same
I don't know why some people are on this board trying to turn D&D into something it never was. D&D is THE game for those who think of elves, dwarves, and halflings when they think of fantasy. If you hate the archetypical fantasy tropes, what drew you to D&D in the first place? D&D added some additional races as the game progressed but always as an alternate and non-core offering. The whole mythology of D&D has centered around the elves, dwarves, humans etc,. Wulfgar, Cattie Brie and Bruneor weren't a shard mind a war forged or a dragonborn. Heck drizzt was exotic by being a dark elf.
throughout fantasy D&D it's been about the core races, I think keeping those traditional fantasy races as core isnt a bad thing. It also isn't equivalent to 'hating' on the other races, I have no problem with other races being in the game, just a problem with them being core.
except dragonborn, I really detest dragonborn. But hey you wanna play a dragon? Go for it.
I don't know why some people are on this board trying to turn D&D into something it never was. D&D is THE game for those who think of elves, dwarves, and halflings when they think of fantasy. If you hate the archetypical fantasy tropes, what drew you
You would be in a minority then and like it or not WoTC is a corporation so they need to sell to as amny people as possible. The Hobbit is a cliche but millions of people are paying money to see it. I usually do not use the default assumptions in my home games but if I was selling D&D for a living cliche here I come!!!.
This is why I'm not saying 'drop halflings from the game', like, oh, OTHER people in this thread are saying about races (even though, as you have surmised, I couldn't care less if they did). If someone wants to play a halfling, let 'em. By the same token, if someone wants to play a Warforged, let 'em.
The mere existence of some races is a problem for DMs for various reasons if it is in core. THe whole tradition thing of playing generic fanatasy races was what D&D was built on. Weird stuff belongs in setting and splats. I'm not saying you can't have them just you have to be careful with the way you do it. No point trying to appeal to the niche stuff if it alienates your core players. Maybe stick some of that stuff in the monster manual anyway and not the PHB like what 3.5 and 4th ed done with Goblins, Orcs etc.
This is why I'm not saying 'drop halflings from the game', like, oh, OTHER people in this thread are saying about races (even though, as you have surmised, I couldn't care less if they did). If someone wants to play a halfling, let 'em. By the same
It is not a problem for those DMs. It is a problem WITH those DMs.
"Here is the list of available races in this game." It is not complicated or difficult to comprehend.
It is not a problem for those DMs. It is a problem WITH those DMs."Here is the list of available races in this game." It is not complicated or difficult to comprehend.
Garthanos the thing is though some things are so diametrically opposed to each other there is no middle ground.
Sorry not seeing those middle grounds ... is what it is.
And Warforged arent that fringy to me. For Instance, for me there are fantasy archetypes which Warforged invoke ranging from D&Ds Gollums to Animated Suits of Armor alah Full Metal Alchemist.
Not for alot of things. Some sort of 3.5/4th hybrid with elements of pre 3rd ed would be the way I would do it. No more magic mart for example, and bring the numbers down to more 2nd ed levels in term of AC/hit points etc. 3.5 was inherently more modular than 4th and 4th ed was inherently better balanced than 3.5. If only a you could figure out how to merge them somehow......
Sorry not seeing those middle grounds ... is what it is.And Warforged arent that fringy to me. For Instance, for me there are fantasy archetypes which Warforged invoke ranging from D&Ds Gollums to Animated Suits of Armor alah Full Metal Alchemist. [/
It is not a problem for those DMs. It is a problem WITH those DMs.
"Here is the list of available races in this game." It is not complicated or difficult to comprehend.
Thats what core races are. You don't really want a huge amount of core races anyway KISS- keep it simple stupid). The few ties WoTC has made a setting or whatever that excludes a core race or class it has been.
1. optional 2. Theres a reason for it.
They need a basic core to build on that won't alienate the majority of the players, Niche stuff has always gone in splats/setting. Niche stuff includes alot of subraces, animalistic races (catfolk), inherently magic races with SLA or similar (Genasi), and more or less anything that isn't a human/orc/elf/halfling/gnome or Dwarf derived. I'm kind of surprised they are planing on including Dragonborn and Tieflings in core and not just because they were in 4th ed as they both have baggage with them. Tieflings and no Aasimar for example as 4th ed borrowed them from previous editions of the game. Even Dragonborn are not that unique.
Thats what core races are. You don't really want a huge amount of core races anyway KISS- keep it simple stupid). The few ties WoTC has made a setting or whatever that excludes a core race or class it has been.1. optional2. Theres a reason for it. T
As always, my ONLY concern is with what will put a D&D box under every xmas tree in America next year. Given that one of the primary barriers to adoption of the game is bloat and over-complication, there needs to be a discrete limit on the initially offered races (& classes, & spells, & so on). So, cliche ahoy, since that's where this game's strengths lie: Human, elf, dwarf, halfling, gnome, half-orc. Maybe half-elf, but I lean against it.
As always, my ONLY concern is with what will put a D&D box under every xmas tree in America next year. Given that one of the primary barriers to adoption of the game is bloat and over-complication, there needs to be a discrete limit on the initially
My reaction to that is to say 'mind your own character'. What other people choose to play is their business.
It comes back to the buffet analogy. It makes no sense to me to spaz out because someone else is eating something I don't like. If they like it, they can have it.
Except, we're not each eating our individual meals. We're collectively telling a story, and though we each only control one character, everything that character does is based on interaction with the world around it - especially the other characters in the party. If I'm playing a paladin, to use the traditional example, then the actions of the rogue are of critical importance to how I play my character.
A better analogy would be a stew, where everyone contributes one ingredient. I can add bacon, because I really like bacon and I think everyone will enjoy that, but if someone else is a vegetarian then that person won't want to eat it.
Obviously, the DM could just send out a note for nobody to bring meat, or to warn the vegetarian to maybe not show up to this dinner, but that's going to alienate either one group or the other. The better solution would be to define "stew" as a thing which can only contain this list of pre-approved ingredients, so everyone knows what they're getting into before they get invested in it.
Except, we're not each eating our individual meals. We're collectively telling a story, and though we each only control one character, everything that character does is based on interaction with the world around it - especially the other characters
That list of ingredients should be made at the table, though, not at the grocery store.
Yes, that's how it should be ... D&D should be the grocery store, offering everything anybody could want.
(And let us hope that they do not bring back Paladin Code And Alignment stupidity.)
That list of ingredients should be made at the table, though, not at the grocery store.Yes, that's how it should be ... D&D should be the grocery store, offering everything anybody could want.(And let us hope that they do not bring back Paladin Code
That list of ingredients should be made at the table, though, not at the grocery store.
Yes, that's how it should be ... D&D should be the grocery store, offering everything anybody could want.
(And let us hope that they do not bring back Paladin Code And Alignment stupidity.)
I thought D&D was a salad bar. You pick the stuff you want and TA-DA, there's your campaign! Enjoy! It's kinda how I want the Realms to shape up for 5e. Make the main book something like Greenwood Presents Elmisnter's Realms. Save specific stuff for other books to mix n match. This would work for Beyond Faerun type of stuff too...
Also, some people like that challenge of a paladin's code. As for me? I want to keep it fluff and let the consequences of the pally's code and actions occur in game with characters, rather than through mechanics. Let it spark in character drama, without chewing someone out of their class.
I thought D&D was a salad bar. You pick the stuff you want and TA-DA, there's your campaign! Enjoy! It's kinda how I want the Realms to shape up for 5e. Make the main book something like Greenwood Presents Elmisnter's Realms. Save specific stuff
Also, some people like that challenge of a paladin's code. As for me? I want to keep it fluff and let the consequences of the pally's code and actions occur in game with characters, rather than through mechanics.
It's akin to a kosher deli offering ham sandwiches, but kicking out anyone who orders it.
...or that may be an awful attempt at an analogy. I dunno.
It's akin to a kosher deli offering ham sandwiches, but kicking out anyone who orders it....or that may be an awful attempt at an analogy. I dunno.
I'm not supporting, just stating that Wizards invests in what they think will earn the most $$. This may be right or wrong, but hey, it's the reason why we haven't seen any support for Spelljammer, Birthright, FR sub-settings, Ravenloft, Planescape, Greyhawk, Mystara, Blackmoor, etc... They think these settings are done and it's likely we'll never see support for them ever again. That's business for you, I'm not fond of the way things are run.
It is a smart business decision to capitalize on the millions of Tolkien-fanboys in the 12-17 year age group. Get them started on tolkien and graduate them to Eberron.
While thats true, you also don't want to alienate the millions of manga, scifi, and weird fantasy fanboys by providing only Tolkien races. I personally feel the best middle-ground is to include all the 3e PHB races plus the Tieflings, Dragonborn, and Eladrin. That way, DDN can have all the races at launch that all the past editions have had at launch. Then they can release a book with more exotic races later (the sooner the better in my opinion. And it better include a handful of underwater races. Merfolk rule, aquatic elves drool!)
It is a smart business decision to capitalize on the millions of Tolkien-fanboys in the 12-17 year age group. Get them started on tolkien and graduate them to Eberron.[/quote]While thats true, you also don't want to alienate the millions of manga, sc
That list of ingredients should be made at the table, though, not at the grocery store.
Yes, that's how it should be ... D&D should be the grocery store, offering everything anybody could want.
That seems really generic, though. I prefer my game systems to be loaded with baked-in flavor. I can totally see the appeal of letting core D&D be setting-neutral with tons of options, and leaving all flavor to the published settings, though.
Maybe I was just turned off by their attempt to shoe-dini the "core races" of 4E into the Forgotten Realms. Maybe I think that, by giving the core books a very strong default setting, it will encourage other settings (including homebrew) to disregard the stuff that doesn't fit instead of awkwardly incorporating it where it really doesn't belong.
If they want Next to be some ultra-generic do-anything system, then more options can't hurt that goal. If they then turn around and insist on putting everything into an established setting, then they've failed at their goal.
That seems really generic, though. I prefer my game systems to be loaded with baked-in flavor. I can totally see the appeal of letting core D&D be setting-neutral with tons of options, and leaving all flavor to the published settings, though. Mayb
That list of ingredients should be made at the table, though, not at the grocery store.
Yes, that's how it should be ... D&D should be the grocery store, offering everything anybody could want.
That seems really generic, though. I prefer my game systems to be loaded with baked-in flavor. I can totally see the appeal of letting core D&D be setting-neutral with tons of options, and leaving all flavor to the published settings, though.
Maybe I was just turned off by their attempt to shoe-dini the "core races" of 4E into the Forgotten Realms. Maybe I think that, by giving the core books a very strong default setting, it will encourage other settings (including homebrew) to disregard the stuff that doesn't fit instead of awkwardly incorporating it where it really doesn't belong.
If they want Next to be some ultra-generic do-anything system, then more options can't hurt that goal. If they then turn around and insist on putting everything into an established setting, then they've failed at their goal.
Baked-in flavor is something a system can get away with only if they intend for the system to only be able to have that flavor. This is a huge problem because D&D hasn't been that since at least before AD&D 2e. Each setting, from DS to Spelljammer to Ravenloft to FR, has had their own specific flavors. However, it becomes harder and harder to offer a variety of uniquely falvorful settings as you increase the degree of baked-in flavor.
That seems really generic, though. I prefer my game systems to be loaded with baked-in flavor. I can totally see the appeal of letting core D&D be setting-neutral with tons of options, and leaving all flavor to the published settings, though. Mayb
If you hate the archetypical fantasy tropes, what drew you to D&D in the first place?
Eberron.
My first character ever was a Warforged. I started playing D&D because I got to play a badass metal man with a really big sword. I do not think my tastes are very unusual.
I don't disagree that D&D will want to draw in fans of the Peter Jackson movies by saying "You can totally do that with this book!", but people interested in those movies will likely have other interests, ranging from comic books to anime. Giving them options to intergrate those options as well as that cool new movie they saw seems like a good idea. I mean, I love those movies. And I like anime. And comic books. And Star Wars. And basically any movie with swords or things like swords clashing against other swords and things like swords. Pretty much anything with multiple people injuring each other.
Telling them they'll have to shovel out another 30$ to get stuff like [Anything Tolkien fans disapprove of.] is certainly a way to draw out more money, but lets not go overboard. A few "off the wall" races can introduce the idea that their fantasy worlds don't have to be limited to movies about short young men with unusually hairy feet being manipulated by older men who give off the odd impression of somehow having power over magnetic fields.
Eberron. My first character ever was a Warforged. I started playing D&D because I got to play a badass metal man with a really big sword. I do not think my tastes are very unusual.I don't disagree that D&D will want to draw in fans of the Peter Jacks
If you hate the archetypical fantasy tropes, what drew you to D&D in the first place?
That D&D wasn't all about the archetypial fantasy tropes, that it gave you the tools to create your own fantasy stories completely subverting those tropes.
That D&D wasn't all about the archetypial fantasy tropes, that it gave you the tools to create your own fantasy stories completely subverting those tropes.
Archtypical fantasy tropes are popular though. Different has been tried.
Does one inherently preclude the other?
Yes. When it comes to core offering.
No. That is flatly false. The only time it becomes true is if you are forced to use everything, which you aren't.
Does one inherently preclude the other?[/quote]Yes. When it comes to core offering.[/quote]No. That is flatly false. The only time it becomes true is if you are forced to use everything, which you aren't.
I'm not supporting, just stating that Wizards invests in what they think will earn the most $$. This may be right or wrong, but hey, it's the reason why we haven't seen any support for Spelljammer, Birthright, FR sub-settings, Ravenloft, Planescape, Greyhawk, Mystara, Blackmoor, etc... They think these settings are done and it's likely we'll never see support for them ever again. That's business for you, I'm not fond of the way things are run.
It is a smart business decision to capitalize on the millions of Tolkien-fanboys in the 12-17 year age group. Get them started on tolkien and graduate them to Eberron.
While thats true, you also don't want to alienate the millions of manga, scifi, and weird fantasy fanboys by providing only Tolkien races. I personally feel the best middle-ground is to include all the 3e PHB races plus the Tieflings, Dragonborn, and Eladrin. That way, DDN can have all the races at launch that all the past editions have had at launch. Then they can release a book with more exotic races later (the sooner the better in my opinion. And it better include a handful of underwater races. Merfolk rule, aquatic elves drool!)
So much aquatic elf hate. End the hate, promote tolerance for a united elvenkind!
Back to serious... Anyway, I don't quite see this as middle ground. Why not something that appeals to both sides of the split. I know I keep trying to push the generic baseplate w/ specifics to plug'n'play your fav. race idea to the point it's slowly becoming obnoxious. But, I honestly feel this might be one of the best ways to go to appeal to both sides.
On one hand, you can play your character out of the box. Want to play an eladrin, warforged, or dragonborn in 5e? Take the high elf, golem/construct, or half-dragon/dragonkin and tinker with it (maybe swap out a mechanic or apply setting fluff) and BAM! Right out of the PHB, that character you wanted to continue with! On the other, it can make races that feel "out of place" to some feel more common place for said people by using generic D&D terms and fluff as baseplates. I mean, high elves exist in the Realms and Greyhawk while half-dragons exist in the Realms, Eberron, and beyond, just as Golems exist... EVERYWHERE. A lot of people felt burned by Nerath races like Dragonborn and (revised) Tiefling shoved into settings. But, I figure this approach would undo the fissure a bit, without taking the good stuff away from people who liked the new ideas.
It is a smart business decision to capitalize on the millions of Tolkien-fanboys in the 12-17 year age group. Get them started on tolkien and graduate them to Eberron.[/quote]While thats true, you also don't want to alienate the millions of manga, sc
When it is D&D that has 40 years of humans elves dwarves and halflings running around throughout the fiction and mythology of the game.
i am all for broadening the options and letting everyone have their version of the game. however I want the core to be about the spirit if of the original game. I think it will be more successful initially if the designers go with the core of the game as it has been for 40 years.
if D&D had been built on changelings, genesai, wilden, and shardminds, I would argue for theM in place of the original tropes.
When it is D&D that has 40 years of humans elves dwarves and halflings running around throughout the fiction and mythology of the game.i am all for broadening the options and letting everyone have their version of the game. however I want the core to
When it is D&D that has 40 years of humans elves dwarves and halflings running around throughout the fiction and mythology of the game.
i am all for broadening the options and letting everyone have their version of the game. however I want the core to be about the spirit if of the original game. I think it will be more successful initially if the designers go with the core of the game as it has been for 40 years.
if D&D had been built on changelings, genesai, wilden, and shardminds, I would argue for theM in place of the original tropes.
It depends on what you mean by core. According to the new L&L article, they plan on putting out different complexities of the game, with the most basic one to resemble an AD&D game. If that one had just the humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings, because it will be the version that most likely appeals to the fans of AD&D, then I have no problem with that. However, once they get into a version that will look more like 3e/4e in complexity, they need to have more options than just "pick your race from the cast of LotR."
It depends on what you mean by core. According to the new L&L article, they plan on putting out different complexities of the game, with the most basic one to resemble an AD&D game. If that one had just the humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings, be
I'm not sure on the numbers myself, but I know such people exist. I have personally seen some posts say that all wizards have to use spell slots or they're not wizards (i.e. that wizards can't include options for spell points or other systems). And I have seen a poster say that D&D can't include rules for guns that aren't totally gimped because guns don't belong in D&D. And there was even one thread about races in the PHB and slapping official rarity tags on them, as if this wasn't already a DM/worldbuilding decision, and as if it weren't a blatant attempt to stigmatize the non-traditional races with a label.
Pathfinder which has developed some very progressive game elements, has an entire book with races catalogued by rarity. The advanced Race guide is extremely popular and well used. IT breaks the races down into Common, Uncommon, and Rare.
I have no problem with a race with a rarity tag. HOW does this take away anyone's fun, and how is that na example of a person being a narrow minded traditionalist?
If there are races with rarity tags, the people that like 'new' races can use them to their hearts content. They are still there. Likewise the classic races, legacy races, whatever you want to call them have their place. Not wanting rarity tags, is just as whiney as insisting 'non-legacy' races not be in the core book.
Everything except the gun issue is really a matter of nomenclature. The gun issue has been a long standing fight, that people that wish guns will always win. It has been in every edition since 2nd edition officially, and is an important part of Pathfinder nowadays (though I do not allow the option of Gun slinger, unless the player makes a Lantan background in Forgotten Realms).
Asking for Wizard to be only vancian is not that harsh an argument if say MAGE is the magic-user that uses spell points. Compromise will have to be made. If the traditionalist insists that wizards ONLY use vancian casting, and there is the Mage option which is identical to wizard except for spell points, then where is the problem?
My wizard is still vancian, and look, your caster is spell point mechanic. They are both casting fireballs from a spell book. Who cares? HOw is that traditionalist player then ruining the game?
From this perspective it sounds like traditionalist 'wants' for the game are completely unimportant, because someone somewhere feels their way is MORE right. If the 'traditionalist' has to put up with all the new races they might not like being in the book, can't the 'modern' player put up with a rarity tag, so that everyone feels satisfied?
Pathfinder which has developed some very progressive game elements, has an entire book with races catalogued by rarity. The advanced Race guide is extremely popular and well used. IT breaks the races down into Common, Uncommon, and Rare.I have no p
Nobody's saying that you need to put Warforged in your campaigns. That's not the topic at hand. The topic at hand is what makes it into the core PHB. You do not and have never needed to include everything in the core PHB in the campaigns that you run.
Crimson according to some of your previous arguments, you would insist that if a player came to his campaign wanting to play a WARFORGED then he should allow it or make it work. I am just pointing out that this is your common valid thesis on this matter or at least it appears to be so.
If that thesis stands, then maybe Warforged can creep into a DM's campaign if it is retained as core.
Nobody's saying that you need to put Warforged in your campaigns. That's not the topic at hand. The topic at hand is what makes it into the core PHB. You do not and have never needed to include everything in the core PHB in the campaigns that you run
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I fully support Warforged in Core. And anything else that will make people who don't want them unhappy.
Because that is the purpose of DDNEXT right? To make sure your ideas WIN!
Because that is the purpose of DDNEXT right? To make sure your ideas WIN!
CORE DOES NOT MEAN MANDATORY. IT MEANS NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. YOU CAN BAN CORE MATERIAL AS EASILY AS ANYTHING ELSE.
So if core means nothing, why then insist it includes the non traditional races? It doesn't really matter after all.
You can still play the races if they are from a splat book, just as easily if they are from a core book. Where is the problem?
So as you say, since core means nothing, why argue for anything but traditional races? Why argue for any particular race at all then?
So if core means nothing, why then insist it includes the non traditional races? It doesn't really matter after all.You can still play the races if they are from a splat book, just as easily if they are from a core book. Where is the problem?So as
I'm not sure on the numbers myself, but I know such people exist. I have personally seen some posts say that all wizards have to use spell slots or they're not wizards (i.e. that wizards can't include options for spell points or other systems). And I have seen a poster say that D&D can't include rules for guns that aren't totally gimped because guns don't belong in D&D. And there was even one thread about races in the PHB and slapping official rarity tags on them, as if this wasn't already a DM/worldbuilding decision, and as if it weren't a blatant attempt to stigmatize the non-traditional races with a label.
Pathfinder which has developed some very progressive game elements, has an entire book with races catalogued by rarity. The advanced Race guide is extremely popular and well used. IT breaks the races down into Common, Uncommon, and Rare.
I have no problem with a race with a rarity tag. HOW does this take away anyone's fun, and how is that na example of a person being a narrow minded traditionalist?
If there are races with rarity tags, the people that like 'new' races can use them to their hearts content. They are still there. Likewise the classic races, legacy races, whatever you want to call them have their place. Not wanting rarity tags, is just as whiney as insisting 'non-legacy' races not be in the core book.
Everything except the gun issue is really a matter of nomenclature. The gun issue has been a long standing fight, that people that wish guns will always win. It has been in every edition since 2nd edition officially, and is an important part of Pathfinder nowadays (though I do not allow the option of Gun slinger, unless the player makes a Lantan background in Forgotten Realms).
Asking for Wizard to be only vancian is not that harsh an argument if say MAGE is the magic-user that uses spell points. Compromise will have to be made. If the traditionalist insists that wizards ONLY use vancian casting, and there is the Mage option which is identical to wizard except for spell points, then where is the problem?
My wizard is still vancian, and look, your caster is spell point mechanic. They are both casting fireballs from a spell book. Who cares? HOw is that traditionalist player then ruining the game?
From this perspective it sounds like traditionalist 'wants' for the game are completely unimportant, because someone somewhere feels their way is MORE right. If the 'traditionalist' has to put up with all the new races they might not like being in the book, can't the 'modern' player put up with a rarity tag, so that everyone feels satisfied?
I LOVE The Advanced Race Guide because it gave easy guidelines for making playable fey races. I love fey and I pretty much always have so I spent HOURS making like 10 different type of fey, lol. If WoTC came out with a similar book I'd probably buy it and make more fey races, hahahaha.
Pathfinder which has developed some very progressive game elements, has an entire book with races catalogued by rarity. The advanced Race guide is extremely popular and well used. IT breaks the races down into Common, Uncommon, and Rare.I have no p
Making money from the sale of hard copy books is a poor financial model in the age of electronic media. I hope WOTC is not planning to make money by printing more and more splat books. I would prefer that they design the system so that it is relatively closed to power creep and limit the scope of additional books. To accomplish this, they would need to predetermine the release of materials so that reference books were intuitive in their design and application and comprehensive and well-encompassing in the content. Releasing small groups of races in each book becomes a headache in the character design process. A much better system would be similar to the current method of the playtest release. Group all races together in one reference book. In PDF and electronic format this could grow with time but in reality I would much prefer if it was comprehensive from the start and closed to creep. One book on races. It includes not only the core races but every race that would be available to PCs within the D&D Next edition. I know this sounds impossible but from the standpoint of future character development I want all of my materials collated into one source book. I don't want to fish through 30 books to create a character. One race book. Divide it into sections of race, subrace, and culture. I would prefer if this also doubled as the monster manual. One specialty and feats book. One class book. Subdivide it into sections of themes, maneuvers, etc. One spellbook. One magic item book. One miscellaneous rulebook.
Is that too many? 6 books to replace 30+ books in past editions. It is more than the 3 core books in past releases.
Maybe a single starter book with just a fraction of the info in the 6 final books.
Making money from the sale of hard copy books is a poor financial model in the age of electronic media. I hope WOTC is not planning to make money by printing more and more splat books.I would prefer that they design the system so that it is relative
Is that too many? 6 books to replace 30+ books in past editions. It is more than the 3 core books in past releases.
Maybe a single starter book with just a fraction of the info in the 6 final books.
So, they release 6 books on Day One of the new edition and then shut down operations, except for a skeleton crew to pump out adventures and online magazines? How do they continue to pay their employees after initial release?
So, they release 6 books on Day One of the new edition and then shut down operations, except for a skeleton crew to pump out adventures and online magazines? How do they continue to pay their employees after initial release?
I fully support Warforged in Core. And anything else that will make people who don't want them unhappy.
Because that is the purpose of DDNEXT right? To make sure your ideas WIN!
That was teasing.
It is important to have ideas I agree with win though, in so much as I get things I want without having to spend another 30 or 60 dollars just to play the game I like at the outset.
Because that is the purpose of DDNEXT right? To make sure your ideas WIN![/quote]That was teasing.It is important to have ideas I agree with win though, in so much as I get things I want without having to spend another 30 or 60 dollars just to play
I fully support Warforged in Core. And anything else that will make people who don't want them unhappy.
Because that is the purpose of DDNEXT right? To make sure your ideas WIN!
That was teasing.
It is important to have ideas I agree with win though, in so much as I get things I want without having to spend another 30 or 60 dollars just to play the game I like at the outset.
Fair enough. There are just lots of "this/that person opinion should not be considered" posts and I don't see how that would help the game.
Because that is the purpose of DDNEXT right? To make sure your ideas WIN![/quote]That was teasing.It is important to have ideas I agree with win though, in so much as I get things I want without having to spend another 30 or 60 dollars just to play
I'd be happiest if they stuck with human, elf, dwarf, halfling. gnome, half elf and half orc for the core rules, and then expanded with the others very soon thereafter.
I want Wizards to have plenty of room to grow after the core release without having to resort to power creep to sell new material. If that means giving us a pretty pared down initial release and including popular options (like kobolds and dragonborn and warforged) in splat so I'll buy it, I'm fine with that.
I'd be happiest if they stuck with human, elf, dwarf, halfling. gnome, half elf and half orc for the core rules, and then expanded with the others very soon thereafter.I want Wizards to have plenty of room to grow after the core release without havin
Is that too many? 6 books to replace 30+ books in past editions. It is more than the 3 core books in past releases.
Maybe a single starter book with just a fraction of the info in the 6 final books.
So, they release 6 books on Day One of the new edition and then shut down operations, except for a skeleton crew to pump out adventures and online magazines? How do they continue to pay their employees after initial release?
They should be putting much more effort into adventures.
I am talking about videos, theme music, audio, plastic figures, maps, handouts, well-considered storylines and plot twists, etc. I rarely use pre-packaged adventures because they are poorly conceived and poorly executed. Often a random dungeon generator could create the same level of detail and the level of support materials is limited to just reading material.
When I make a dungeon I find theme music, prepare handouts, consider character development, examine short and long term plot lines, etc. Simply put, I make my own adventures because I do a much better job than WOTC.
We don't need more splat books. I am not going to buy them anyway. I haven't bought splat books since 2nd edition. PDFs are much more convenient.
So, they release 6 books on Day One of the new edition and then shut down operations, except for a skeleton crew to pump out adventures and online magazines? How do they continue to pay their employees after initial release?[/quote]They should be pu
Well Gandalf casts well enough as a Deva/Maiar ...
I see no reason why a player shouldn't be able to choose Balrog. Of course, I would insist that the power level and growth would be similar to other characters in the campaign and that the player would need to deal with the resulting prejudices against his choice of character race.
So... Balrog?!Whoo HOO!!![/quote]Well Gandalf casts well enough as a Deva/Maiar ...[/quote]I see no reason why a player shouldn't be able to choose Balrog. Of course, I would insist that the power level and growth would be similar to other character
I am talking about videos, theme music, audio, plastic figures, maps, handouts, well-considered storylines and plot twists, etc.
I don't see that happening. They sell minis and maps as is. They've been selling tiles and map packs. They also sell splatbooks. (Whether it is distibuted as a pdf or hard copy is a different consideration.)
Minis, tiles, and map packs is not going to cut it. Not are they going to opena music studio to sell background music. There's too much free stuff out there for download for them to become a music studio.
I don't know any large gaming company who survives only on props and adventures. Even Paizo doesn't manage that.
I don't see that happening. They sell minis and maps as is. They've been selling tiles and map packs. They also sell splatbooks. (Whether it is distibuted as a pdf or hard copy is a different consideration.)Minis, tiles, and map packs is not goi
I am talking about videos, theme music, audio, plastic figures, maps, handouts, well-considered storylines and plot twists, etc.
I don't see that happening. They sell minis and maps as is. They've been selling tiles and map packs. They also sell splatbooks. (Whether it is distibuted as a pdf or hard copy is a different consideration.)
Minis, tiles, and map packs is not going to cut it. Not are they going to opena music studio to sell background music. There's too much free stuff out there for download for them to become a music studio.
I don't know any large gaming company who survives only on props and adventures. Even Paizo doesn't manage that.
I don't purchase splat books and I know very few people that do. I can't see that being a lucrative market compared to the sale of core books. 6 very well-designed core books would make a better profit than 30 splat books.
Their biggest market would be selling more and more of the core books and growing that segment. Video games that play with the table top gaming rather than outside of them would be awesome. Conventions, online gaming, and well-written adventures with enhanced multimedia would make a good profit as well.
Hardcopy splatbooks are a losing venture. Unless WOTC can convince me that the market is solid for printed copies, I would suggest they avoid that.
I don't see that happening. They sell minis and maps as is. They've been selling tiles and map packs. They also sell splatbooks. (Whether it is distibuted as a pdf or hard copy is a different consideration.)Minis, tiles, and map packs is not goi
I don't purchase splat books and I know very few people that do.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. The fact that every RPG company in the world sells splat books for their systems seems to me that every RPG company in the world thinks sellign splat books is the way to make a profit... even if that means you and those you know aren't buying them.
Video games that play with the table top gaming rather than outside of them would be awesome. Conventions, online gaming, and well-written adventures with enhanced multimedia would make a good profit as well.
You have no idea if it would make a good profit.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. The fact that every RPG company in the world sells splat books for their systems seems to me that every RPG company in the world thinks sellign splat books is the way to make a profit... even if that means you and th
I'm not sure on the numbers myself, but I know such people exist. I have personally seen some posts say that all wizards have to use spell slots or they're not wizards (i.e. that wizards can't include options for spell points or other systems). And I have seen a poster say that D&D can't include rules for guns that aren't totally gimped because guns don't belong in D&D. And there was even one thread about races in the PHB and slapping official rarity tags on them, as if this wasn't already a DM/worldbuilding decision, and as if it weren't a blatant attempt to stigmatize the non-traditional races with a label.
Pathfinder which has developed some very progressive game elements, has an entire book with races catalogued by rarity. The advanced Race guide is extremely popular and well used. IT breaks the races down into Common, Uncommon, and Rare.
I have no problem with a race with a rarity tag. HOW does this take away anyone's fun, and how is that na example of a person being a narrow minded traditionalist?
If there are races with rarity tags, the people that like 'new' races can use them to their hearts content. They are still there. Likewise the classic races, legacy races, whatever you want to call them have their place. Not wanting rarity tags, is just as whiney as insisting 'non-legacy' races not be in the core book.
Rarity tags not only stigmatize a race, they also create confusion in the following ways: 1) Rarity implies power. New players and DMs who see a race is "rare" will assume it is more powerful. 2) Rarity implies that the DM must enforce a limit on the races. Can two players both be members of rare races? What about both being members of the same rare race? Experienced DMs know enough to just ignore the tag, but people coming into the hobby will assume that the tag has some actual meaning.
Everything except the gun issue is really a matter of nomenclature. The gun issue has been a long standing fight, that people that wish guns will always win. It has been in every edition since 2nd edition officially, and is an important part of Pathfinder nowadays (though I do not allow the option of Gun slinger, unless the player makes a Lantan background in Forgotten Realms).
Actually, as much as 4e is my favorite edition, it did fail me in that it had no guns. Also, the guns of 2nd and 3rd edition aren't exactly viable main weapons. They function more like a fire and abandon weapon that is used for a quick burst of damage during the first round then is meaningless because of the reload mechanic.
Asking for Wizard to be only vancian is not that harsh an argument if say MAGE is the magic-user that uses spell points. Compromise will have to be made. If the traditionalist insists that wizards ONLY use vancian casting, and there is the Mage option which is identical to wizard except for spell points, then where is the problem?
Is the mage identical? Does it have exactly the same class feautes, and the ONLY thing that has changed is the spell slots becoming spell points? That would be fine. It's a little silly to reprint the same class again when you can just make the spells per day mechanics of the caster classes modular, but if they do, and if the spells per day mechanic is the ONLY change, then fine.
My wizard is still vancian, and look, your caster is spell point mechanic. They are both casting fireballs from a spell book. Who cares? HOw is that traditionalist player then ruining the game?
Because the odds are very good that they won't just reprint the wizard with spell points instead of slots and rename it mage. Instead, we'll get a separate class that has its own fluff-enforcing mechanics, like we did with the playtest lock and sorcerer. The spells per day mechanic of a caster class is very easy to make modular, especially the conversion from slots to points, and yet, time and again, those of us who are asking for modularity in this element have been told "just play another class and call it a wizard." That would be fine advice if none of the caster classes had their own fluff-enforcing mechanics that made them feel different.
From this perspective it sounds like traditionalist 'wants' for the game are completely unimportant, because someone somewhere feels their way is MORE right. If the 'traditionalist' has to put up with all the new races they might not like being in the book, can't the 'modern' player put up with a rarity tag, so that everyone feels satisfied?
You're comparing wants and needs. Traditionalist wants do not get to negate the needs of nontraditionalists. And the same is true in reverse: that the wants of nontraditionalists don't get to negate the needs of traditionalists. For many traditionalists, vancian is a need. Great, no reason to take it out. But, at the same time, there's no good reason why it has to be mandatory for any class. Applying this same thought to races gives you the comparison of wants and needs yet again. Traditionalists want only the traditional races, but that want directly opposes a need on the other side (the need for at least a few races that nontraditionalists find to be interesting/fun to play). Wants don't outweigh needs.
Pathfinder which has developed some very progressive game elements, has an entire book with races catalogued by rarity. The advanced Race guide is extremely popular and well used. IT breaks the races down into Common, Uncommon, and Rare.I have no p
I don't purchase splat books and I know very few people that do.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. The fact that every RPG company in the world sells splat books for their systems seems to me that every RPG company in the world thinks sellign splat books is the way to make a profit... even if that means you and those you know aren't buying them.
Video games that play with the table top gaming rather than outside of them would be awesome. Conventions, online gaming, and well-written adventures with enhanced multimedia would make a good profit as well.
You have no idea if it would make a good profit.
You can look at Amazon and see that splat books don't sell. You can go to a hobby store or book store and find that they are stocked in very low numbers.
The best selling D&D books on Amazon are still the Core. 4th edition Player's Handbook (#5,000), Dungeon Master's Guide(#14,500), and Monster Manual (#14,600).
None of them are nowhere near as popular as other books and games. The newest 4th edition splat book Elminster's Forgotten Realms is currently selling #26,000. #61 in Fantasy Gaming.
The Pathfinder Core Rulebook is outselling all of the WOTC books (#1,400 in books and #6 in Fantasy gamebooks).
The current best selling splat book for WOTC is Heroes of the Fallen Lands at #12,000 and #12 in Fantasy gaming.
This is not anecdotal evidence.
Splat books are not a rainmaking profit-bulging business. Why should they be? Unfortunately for these business, I can download the PDF for free with relative ease. They should concentrate their efforts on the better selling products. Miniatures, maps, etc. They could add in audio and video accessories to gaming.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. The fact that every RPG company in the world sells splat books for their systems seems to me that every RPG company in the world thinks sellign splat books is the way to make a profit... even if that means you and th
Rarity tags not only stigmatize a race, they also create confusion in the following ways: 1) Rarity implies power. New players and DMs who see a race is "rare" will assume it is more powerful. 2) Rarity implies that the DM must enforce a limit on the races. Can two players both be members of rare races? What about both being members of the same rare race? Experienced DMs know enough to just ignore the tag, but people coming into the hobby will assume that the tag has some actual meaning.
Those are dangers that could indeed with rarity tags, but I am not sure that is what happens in practice. The Advanced Race Guide is very popular for pathfinders and power level does not really get confused, in practice. I don't have numbers, but out of the PFS players I know all the races in that guide are available and are not just 'weird race' tokens. I see your point with vancian below, but I do not think rarity tags ultimately will have much effect on the game except to make some traditionalists happy.
Things should not be avoided just because it might cause confusion with a new DM. Like everything D&D has a learning curve. Misconceptions develop which get cleared up with experience. I would never play with a DM like I was in 8th grade (unless I was doing it as a training exercise for him.) DM's learn. We can't avoid misconceptions that will develop with new players it is going to happen as surely as it will with new science students.
Actually, as much as 4e is my favorite edition, it did fail me in that it had no guns. Also, the guns of 2nd and 3rd edition aren't exactly viable main weapons. They function more like a fire and abandon weapon that is used for a quick burst of damage during the first round then is meaningless because of the reload mechanic.
Well to be fair, guns around that time were shoot first bayonet later. A guy with an arquebus had no chance against a guy with an axe if his first shot didn't kill or maim.
As far as the vancian casters go, they should definitely do away with mechanics that enforce the flavor for other casters. A spell point module is easy to convert to vancian, without throwing any class feature off.
Those are dangers that could indeed with rarity tags, but I am not sure that is what happens in practice. The Advanced Race Guide is very popular for pathfinders and power level does not really get confused, in practice. I don't have numbers, but o
You can look at Amazon and see that splat books don't sell. You can go to a hobby store or book store and find that they are stocked in very low numbers.
They don't sell as well as core. That's obvous. But neither do adventures, map packs, minis or any of the other stuff you say they should be producing instead of splatblooks.
The choice here is not produce a splatbook or abother corebook. You werent' suggesting they print a new corebook every year. You were suggesting adventures, minis, soundtracks, videos, and maps. And those sell much less than splatbooks.
Splat books are not a rainmaking profit-bulging business.
Neither are minis, adventures, soundtracks, videos, or maps.
So what is it again you think they should be producing after the corebooks are published?
They don't sell as well as core. That's obvous. But neither do adventures, map packs, minis or any of the other stuff you say they should be producing instead of splatblooks.The choice here is not produce a splatbook or abother corebook. You weren
I don't purchase splat books and I know very few people that do.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. The fact that every RPG company in the world sells splat books for their systems seems to me that every RPG company in the world thinks sellign splat books is the way to make a profit... even if that means you and those you know aren't buying them.
Video games that play with the table top gaming rather than outside of them would be awesome. Conventions, online gaming, and well-written adventures with enhanced multimedia would make a good profit as well.
You have no idea if it would make a good profit.
You can look at Amazon and see that splat books don't sell. You can go to a hobby store or book store and find that they are stocked in very low numbers.
The best selling D&D books on Amazon are still the Core. 4th edition Player's Handbook (#5,000), Dungeon Master's Guide(#14,500), and Monster Manual (#14,600).
None of them are nowhere near as popular as other books and games. The newest 4th edition splat book Elminster's Forgotten Realms is currently selling #26,000. #61 in Fantasy Gaming.
The Pathfinder Core Rulebook is outselling all of the WOTC books (#1,400 in books and #6 in Fantasy gamebooks).
The current best selling splat book for WOTC is Heroes of the Fallen Lands at #12,000 and #12 in Fantasy gaming.
This is not anecdotal evidence.
Splat books are not a rainmaking profit-bulging business. Why should they be? Unfortunately for these business, I can download the PDF for free with relative ease. They should concentrate their efforts on the better selling products. Miniatures, maps, etc. They could add in audio and video accessories to gaming.
Well hopefully your not pirating the PDF's because that is just crappy to do all the time but in a niche market like this it is even worse.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. The fact that every RPG company in the world sells splat books for their systems seems to me that every RPG company in the world thinks sellign splat books is the way to make a profit... even if that means you and th
You can look at Amazon and see that splat books don't sell. You can go to a hobby store or book store and find that they are stocked in very low numbers.
They don't sell as well as core. That's obvous. But neither do adventures, map packs, minis or any of the other stuff you say they should be producing instead of splatblooks.
The choice here is not produce a splatbook or abother corebook. You werent' suggesting they print a new corebook every year. You were suggesting adventures, minis, soundtracks, videos, and maps. And those sell much less than splatbooks.
Splat books are not a rainmaking profit-bulging business.
Neither are minis, adventures, soundtracks, videos, or maps.
So what is it again you think they should be producing after the corebooks are published?
To be fair though, Paizo has claimed numerous times that the Adventure Path is the core of their business.
I do not think they could exist on them alone, but the ceo has claimed they get the most profit from them, compared to even the core book.
They don't sell as well as core. That's obvous. But neither do adventures, map packs, minis or any of the other stuff you say they should be producing instead of splatblooks.The choice here is not produce a splatbook or abother corebook. You weren
Crimson according to some of your previous arguments, you would insist that if a player came to his campaign wanting to play a WARFORGED then he should allow it or make it work. I am just pointing out that this is your common valid thesis on this matter or at least it appears to be so. If that thesis stands, then maybe Warforged can creep into a DM's campaign if it is retained as core.
Sure, but that's my argument regardless of whether the Warforged is in the Core rulebook or not. And, if you don't feel the same way, then you can disallow the Warforged regardless of whether it's in the Core rulebook or not.
So if core means nothing, why then insist it includes the non traditional races? It doesn't really matter after all. You can still play the races if they are from a splat book, just as easily if they are from a core book. Where is the problem?
Because the Core is still the first impression and first experience people will have with the hobby. If that impressions is that "race" in this game boils down to "Do I want to be short or have pointy ears?" rather than any major species difference, that limits the freedom that D&D supposedly allows in character creation. Here's a longer explanation from one of my blog posts:
This gives the game to little to offer. Lack of options makes people feel like there's not very much they can actually do. If I have to wait for two years to be able to make a summoner or to be able to make a wrestler or to be able to make a shape-shifter, then the game as simply not delivered. D&D is supposed to be a game where we can make whatever sort of character we can imagine, and if even our first impression is that we have strict limits, then that does take away from our experience of the game.
Think about the races that were presented in the 3.5 PHB versus in the 4E PHB. The 3.5 PHB races were all basically human-like. They painted a very mundane picture of character race, because you were either human or a short human or a stout human or a human with pointy ears. This is a bad first impression of supposed infinite character customizability. The 4E PHB, on the other hand, included a couple of more exotic races in there with the basic human-like ones. The Dragonborn and Tiefling gave player the idea that, even if they aren't available yet, this will be a game where you can play anything your heart desires.
So what am I trying to say here? I'm trying to say that making the core rules too basic is going to turn people off. It's just not exciting to newcomers for them to be given the premise that they can make whatever they want but then limit them so severely. Being so limited in what kinds of characters the rules will let you construct is simply not good for business or for the game of D&D.
Sure, but that's my argument regardless of whether the Warforged is in the Core rulebook or not. And, if you don't feel the same way, then you can disallow the Warforged regardless of whether it's in the Core rulebook or not.Because the Core is still
You can look at Amazon and see that splat books don't sell. You can go to a hobby store or book store and find that they are stocked in very low numbers.
They don't sell as well as core. That's obvous. But neither do adventures, map packs, minis or any of the other stuff you say they should be producing instead of splatblooks.
The choice here is not produce a splatbook or abother corebook. You werent' suggesting they print a new corebook every year. You were suggesting adventures, minis, soundtracks, videos, and maps. And those sell much less than splatbooks.
Splat books are not a rainmaking profit-bulging business.
Neither are minis, adventures, soundtracks, videos, or maps.
So what is it again you think they should be producing after the corebooks are published?
Actually, figures, cards, tiles, and other accessories sell better than the splatbooks. At least according to Amazon.
They don't sell as well as core. That's obvous. But neither do adventures, map packs, minis or any of the other stuff you say they should be producing instead of splatblooks.The choice here is not produce a splatbook or abother corebook. You weren
The effort and manpower to create a splatbook probably barely justifies the profit from it. Most likely they lose money if you look at the number of man hours and the number of buyers.
Video games, mobile apps, or computer software that supported table top gaming would be much more productive for their company.
Allow the core rulebooks to sell. Support them to increase sales. And provide accessories that people will buy as they have more value than a splatbook for the typical gamer.
The effort and manpower to create a splatbook probably barely justifies the profit from it. Most likely they lose money if you look at the number of man hours and the number of buyers.Video games, mobile apps, or computer software that supported tab
The answer "what races should be in the first books released" is "as many as possible." Anything less than that is pure selfishness. Period.
Not having as many races as possible in the book released is not pure selfishness, its pure business practice.
Everyone is free to wish all they want in the first book release, but WoTC is out to sell books and controlling content release is what all publishers do to drive sales and people will be in for big disappointements if they expect otherwise.
Not having as many races as possible in the book released is not pure selfishness, its pure business practice.Everyone is free to wish all they want in the first book release, but WoTC is out to sell books and controlling content release is what all
You can look at Amazon and see that splat books don't sell. You can go to a hobby store or book store and find that they are stocked in very low numbers.
They don't sell as well as core. That's obvous. But neither do adventures, map packs, minis or any of the other stuff you say they should be producing instead of splatblooks.
The choice here is not produce a splatbook or abother corebook. You werent' suggesting they print a new corebook every year. You were suggesting adventures, minis, soundtracks, videos, and maps. And those sell much less than splatbooks.
Splat books are not a rainmaking profit-bulging business.
Neither are minis, adventures, soundtracks, videos, or maps.
So what is it again you think they should be producing after the corebooks are published?
To be fair though, Paizo has claimed numerous times that the Adventure Path is the core of their business.
I do not think they could exist on them alone, but the ceo has claimed they get the most profit from them, compared to even the core book.
I've heard this too. I find it interesting from a business standpoint. What it means is that DM's are the actual buyers of materials - not players. I don't know what the percentage is, but I'd guess I buy 10 times the number of books, minis, maps, etc. than my players. If that stands true for most, then Wizards really should be looking at a large expensive pack for an Adventure Path. One that contains a map pack of ALL the areas, not just 1 or 2 out of dozens; the NPC and monster minis; handouts for players and maybe even pregenerated characters; and of course, the adventure itself. I would pay a $110-$150 for that. If they followed PF idea of six in a series, that's close to a $1,000. That might make them some dinero!
They don't sell as well as core. That's obvous. But neither do adventures, map packs, minis or any of the other stuff you say they should be producing instead of splatblooks.The choice here is not produce a splatbook or abother corebook. You weren
The effort and manpower to create a splatbook probably barely justifies the profit from it. Most likely they lose money if you look at the number of man hours and the number of buyers.
Video games, mobile apps, or computer software that supported table top gaming would be much more productive for their company.
Allow the core rulebooks to sell. Support them to increase sales. And provide accessories that people will buy as they have more value than a splatbook for the typical gamer.
That might be a pretty neat app - the race app. Each month or two a new race pops up on your phone with details regarding character creation.
That might be a pretty neat app - the race app. Each month or two a new race pops up on your phone with details regarding character creation. :)
The answer "what races should be in the first books released" is "as many as possible." Anything less than that is pure selfishness. Period.
Not having as many races as possible in the book released is not pure selfishness, its pure business practice.
Everyone is free to wish all they want in the first book release, but WoTC is out to sell books and controlling content release is what all publishers do to drive sales and people will be in for big disappointements if they expect otherwise.
And people tried to argue that there were no selfish people who want to deny others what they want in D&D Next, even though including it will come at no cost to themselves.
I say again:
These petty people are the ONE group which WotC should ignore.
Further, it is timely to again remind that the CONCEPT of Races is core to D&D Next but NO SINGLE RACE is core to D&D Next.
Just like every single class, every single race is an optional module which you can include or exclude from your campaign with no damage to the core mechanics.
Because ONLY those MECHANICS are core.
And if you don't get that yet then go back and re-read those design notes the team have been publishing, because you haven't been listening to the people creating the game.
Not having as many races as possible in the book released is not pure selfishness, its pure business practice.Everyone is free to wish all they want in the first book release, but WoTC is out to sell books and controlling content release is what all
The answer "what races should be in the first books released" is "as many as possible." Anything less than that is pure selfishness. Period.
Not having as many races as possible in the book released is not pure selfishness, its pure business practice.
Everyone is free to wish all they want in the first book release, but WoTC is out to sell books and controlling content release is what all publishers do to drive sales and people will be in for big disappointements if they expect otherwise.
And people tried to argue that there were no selfish people who want to deny others what they want in D&D Next, even though including it will come at no cost to themselves.
I say again:
These petty people are the ONE group which WotC should ignore.
Further, it is timely to again remind that the CONCEPT of Races is core to D&D Next but NO SINGLE RACE is core to D&D Next.
Just like every single class, every single race is an optional module which you can include or exclude from your campaign with no damage to the core mechanics.
Because ONLY those MECHANICS are core.
And if you don't get that yet then go back and re-read those design notes the team have been publishing, because you haven't been listening to the people creating the game.
Wow! One colossal Strawman. He didn't say any of that. He said a truth. It would be bad business for WoTC to put as many races as possible in the PHB.
It would be bad business for multiple reasons. First, there simply isn't room. WoTC could currently put out a 600 page book of nothing but races. Then they could add 1000+ more pages of races that they create in order to put in "as many races as possible." Are they supposed to have 1600+ pages of races in the PHB? If not, then they are not going to have as many races as possible and will be limiting races. Obviously, they will be limiting races, so the only question now is WHICH races they put into the PHB................the purpose of this thread. Second, they make more money by adding races in splat books.
Not having as many races as possible in the book released is not pure selfishness, its pure business practice.Everyone is free to wish all they want in the first book release, but WoTC is out to sell books and controlling content release is what all
And people tried to argue that there were no selfish people who want to deny others what they want in D&D Next, even though including it will come at no cost to themselves. I say again: These petty people are the ONE group which WotC should ignore.....And if you don't get that yet then go back and re-read those design notes the team have been publishing, because you haven't been listening to the people creating the game.
MaxPerson and PlagueScarred have already demonstrated that you're ignoring the publishing costs of including every possible race or class in the initial core books. I'll add another issue: the intimidation factor. WotC doesn't need to sell this book to just the few current players who want the outre races and wacko classes, nor even to the broader player base who prefer the usual 8 or so of each. They need to market this edition to the masses who've yet to pick up a d20, and one of the major barriers that group faces which keeps them out of this hobby is the - up until now correct - belief that they need to swallow 300+ page books in order to play. It's one of the factors that has kept this hobby marginalized, and depressed sales. One way to overcome that is to keep the books significantly slimmer, and whenever possible to appeal to the familiar Tolkienesque tropes which make up 95%+ of all D&D play.
That's neither selfish nor petty. It's necessary for the continuation and expansion of the hobby as a whole, which frankly outweighs any one or two whiners who want their manga-haired Grell character straight out of the box.
MaxPerson and PlagueScarred have already demonstrated that you're ignoring the publishing costs of including every possible race or class in the initial core books. I'll add another issue: the intimidation factor. WotC doesn't need to sell this boo
Publishing costs are trivial as far as marginal cost per page.
Oh, right, I forgot the mysterious 50000 lost sales, my bad.
And are people really having trouble understanding what "as many as possible" means? It doesn't mean "as many as I can possibly imagine," it means "as many as possible." If we include so many that the PHB collapses under its own weight and forms a black hole, that falls into the realm of "too many to be possible." Likewise, if we get to the realm of legitimate business reasons to cut things off, then that also falls into the category of "too many to be possible."
But a dozen, even two? That's entirely within the realm of possibility, and I stand by my claim that anyone wanting to restrict it to anything smaller than that (with particular egregiousness for the 'core 4 only' folks) are being selfish and denying people the option of playing the way they want to play out of spite.
Publishing costs are trivial as far as marginal cost per page. Oh, right, I forgot the mysterious 50000 lost sales, my bad.And are people really having trouble understanding what "as many as possible" means? It doesn't mean "as many as I can possib
how about zero.. heheh. ok I am just talking the mechanical core not the "to be found in the phb core" Race is a setting dependent element and in effect an unrequired character distinction.. if I am doing a historic earth setting for instance I see no necessity to differentiate humans in that fashion.
how about zero.. heheh. ok I am just talking the mechanical core not the "to be found in the phb core"Race is a setting dependent element and in effect an unrequired character distinction.. if I am doing a historic earth setting for instance I see no
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />But a dozen, even two? That's entirely within the realm of possibility...
Possibility, yes. Probability and profitability, given the need for this product to penetrate deeper into the market than any previous edition of D&D? No.
...and I stand by my claim that anyone wanting to restrict it to anything smaller than that (with particular egregiousness for the 'core 4 only' folks) are being selfish and denying people the option of playing the way they want to play out of spite.
You may continue to be wrong. Take it up with the design team.
Possibility, yes. Probability and profitability, given the need for this product to penetrate deeper into the market than any previous edition of D&D? No.You may continue to be wrong. Take it up with the design team.
A book of races would be purchased By most players as a useful resource. Multiple splat books with 4 races in each might be avoided if in aggregate it felt unnecessary.
A book of races might by itself be considered a core book.
A book of races would be purchased By most players as a useful resource. Multiple splat books with 4 races in each might be avoided if in aggregate it felt unnecessary.A book of races might by itself be considered a core book.
But a dozen, even two? That's entirely within the realm of possibility, and I stand by my claim that anyone wanting to restrict it to anything smaller than that (with particular egregiousness for the 'core 4 only' folks) are being selfish and denying people the option of playing the way they want to play out of spite.
There isn't going to be room for that many, Mand. With all of the modules that will have to be put out in the PHB, extra races simply won't fit. People don't want to buy a 500 page PHB. I don't want to spend $60-$75 just on one book to be able to make a character. If the PHB is any more than $40, WoTC can keep it.
There isn't going to be room for that many, Mand. With all of the modules that will have to be put out in the PHB, extra races simply won't fit. People don't want to buy a 500 page PHB. I don't want to spend $60-$75 just on one book to be able to
A book of races would be purchased By most players as a useful resource. Multiple splat books with 4 races in each might be avoided if in aggregate it felt unnecessary.
A book of races might by itself be considered a core book.
A book of races will never be a core book. Core is PHB, DMG and MM. Everything else is splat.
A book of races will never be a core book. Core is PHB, DMG and MM. Everything else is splat.
A book of races would be purchased By most players....
Sorry, I don't think the "most" is justified here. Given the degree to which Tolkien dominates the fantasy conventions of the public consciousness, I'd be very much surprised if that were true. While many current D&D players have dabbled with Dragonborn or Githyanki or other oddball breeds, they're not going to be the ones that resonate with that potential market of consumers WotC wants to reach. For those, elf, halfling, dwarf and human will cover it.
Sorry, I don't think the "most" is justified here. Given the degree to which Tolkien dominates the fantasy conventions of the public consciousness, I'd be very much surprised if that were true. While many current D&D players have dabbled with Drago
A book of races would be purchased By most players as a useful resource.
I disagree. i think it would be a niche product for a niche market. The only way it wouldwork is if you forced people to buy a book of 500 races to get elf, dwarf, halfling, and/or human. And then you'd be causing a ton of resentment.
I disagree. i think it would be a niche product for a niche market. The only way it wouldwork is if you forced people to buy a book of 500 races to get elf, dwarf, halfling, and/or human. And then you'd be causing a ton of resentment.
But a dozen, even two? That's entirely within the realm of possibility, and I stand by my claim that anyone wanting to restrict it to anything smaller than that (with particular egregiousness for the 'core 4 only' folks) are being selfish and denying people the option of playing the way they want to play out of spite.
There isn't going to be room for that many, Mand. With all of the modules that will have to be put out in the PHB, extra races simply won't fit. People don't want to buy a 500 page PHB. I don't want to spend $60-$75 just on one book to be able to make a character. If the PHB is any more than $40, WoTC can keep it.
Other than the cost the size of the book can be a real problem.
I am on my 2nd Pathfinder core because the first one is worn out. THe weight of the book is too much for its spine. I there are 8 people in my group and 4 hardcopies of the rules, with two of them being mine; the worn one and the new one. Half of our PF core books are showing more wear than any other RPG book I had ever. My 1st edition DM's guide is in much better shape than the PF book, and I used it for more years.
There isn't going to be room for that many, Mand. With all of the modules that will have to be put out in the PHB, extra races simply won't fit. People don't want to buy a 500 page PHB. I don't want to spend $60-$75 just on one book to be able to
Publishing costs are trivial as far as marginal cost per page.
Oh, right, I forgot the mysterious 50000 lost sales, my bad.
And are people really having trouble understanding what "as many as possible" means? It doesn't mean "as many as I can possibly imagine," it means "as many as possible." If we include so many that the PHB collapses under its own weight and forms a black hole, that falls into the realm of "too many to be possible." Likewise, if we get to the realm of legitimate business reasons to cut things off, then that also falls into the category of "too many to be possible."
But a dozen, even two? That's entirely within the realm of possibility, and I stand by my claim that anyone wanting to restrict it to anything smaller than that (with particular egregiousness for the 'core 4 only' folks) are being selfish and denying people the option of playing the way they want to play out of spite.
The wierd stuff tends to go in the splat books. Always had and always well. AFAIK we're getting the tolkeinesque races+ Dragonborn and Tiefling as core races. The weird stuff will most likely turn up in a variety of splats.
The wierd stuff tends to go in the splat books. Always had and always well. AFAIK we're getting the tolkeinesque races+ Dragonborn and Tiefling as core races. The weird stuff will most likely turn up in a variety of splats.
Philosophically yes but ye olde tolkeinesque is popular. I woudl not use a new edition for example and base it off Darksun or Spelljammer despite personally liking those setting. They are niche setting and it is kind of the same with races.
If you want some kind of catfolk or whatever go for it but it will not be in the core rules and you may have to wait until they make a catfolk in a splat book.
One has also to rememebr that 4th ed core wih Dragonborn, Tieflins and teleporting elves passed the weird factor for some people. Our group has had tiflings and aasimar before but races like that are really splatbook material although they will be core this time around although I tihnk the Eladrin will be back to the old Grey Elf of pre 4th ed.
By weird anything that looks drastically different or has supernatural or magical/psionic abilites. Races like that do not fit into all settings or camapign worlds. If they are in a core book it means they will be used in things like official adventures. Warforged even refluffed have no place in a low magic setting. Some setting may have no elves and Dwarves or have them as rare and exotic races.
Philosophically yes but ye olde tolkeinesque is popular. I woudl not use a new edition for example and base it off Darksun or Spelljammer despite personally liking those setting. They are niche setting and it is kind of the same with races. If you wa
A book of races would be purchased By most players as a useful resource.
I disagree. i think it would be a niche product for a niche market. The only way it wouldwork is if you forced people to buy a book of 500 races to get elf, dwarf, halfling, and/or human. And then you'd be causing a ton of resentment.
According to Paizo at PaizoCon 2012 the Advanced race guide filled with weird, strange, and odd non-standard races seems to have been adopted quite successfully amongst the Paizo customer base. Niche product when rolled out as a big comprehensive resource? I think not.
I disagree. i think it would be a niche product for a niche market. The only way it wouldwork is if you forced people to buy a book of 500 races to get elf, dwarf, halfling, and/or human. And then you'd be causing a ton of resentment.[/quote]Accor
A book of races would be purchased By most players as a useful resource.
I disagree. i think it would be a niche product for a niche market. The only way it wouldwork is if you forced people to buy a book of 500 races to get elf, dwarf, halfling, and/or human. And then you'd be causing a ton of resentment.
According to Paizo at PaizoCon 2012 the Advanced race guide filled with weird, strange, and odd non-standard races seems to have been adopted quite successfully amongst the Paizo customer base. Niche product when rolled out as a big comprehensive resource? I think not.
Weird stuff in a splat is perfectly fine. Also Paizo only does around 3-4 splats a year so each one tend to sell very well as you are not being drowned in them and they have a reasonably fanatical fanbase.
I disagree. i think it would be a niche product for a niche market. The only way it wouldwork is if you forced people to buy a book of 500 races to get elf, dwarf, halfling, and/or human. And then you'd be causing a ton of resentment.[/quote]Accor
The Core 4: For a "generic" fantasy roleplay game, I feel it is important to be able to recreate the archetypes of Lord of the Rings from core. It's a strong point of reference for incoming players.
Tiefling/Aasimar: If one is included, I feel the other should be as well. These races help emphasize the D&D-specific celestial/fiendish axis and including these races grants a strong introduction to lore specific to D&D. They also serve as a natural fit for Arcane/Divine magic affinity.
Half-elf or Half-orc: I did not vote for these ones, but it is a strong option to set precedent that races can interbreed in the fantasy D&D world. The downside of the races, is the reuse of "half" amongst core races which has always created some mental barriers for those accepting the term "halfling" for the first time. I have no fondness for them, myself, but half-elf is a race that I've had players request in settings outside of D&D, purely on flavor/theme over mechanics.
The Core 4:For a "generic" fantasy roleplay game, I feel it is important to be able to recreate the archetypes of Lord of the Rings from core. It's a strong point of reference for incoming players.Tiefling/Aasimar:If one is included, I feel the othe
A book of races would be purchased By most players as a useful resource.
I disagree. i think it would be a niche product for a niche market. The only way it wouldwork is if you forced people to buy a book of 500 races to get elf, dwarf, halfling, and/or human. And then you'd be causing a ton of resentment.
According to Paizo at PaizoCon 2012 the Advanced race guide filled with weird, strange, and odd non-standard races seems to have been adopted quite successfully amongst the Paizo customer base. Niche product when rolled out as a big comprehensive resource? I think not.
Weird stuff in a splat is perfectly fine. Also Paizo only does around 3-4 splats a year so each one tend to sell very well as you are not being drowned in them and they have a reasonably fanatical fanbase.
A quality splat book every 2-3 months is ideal. 1 book a month is just too much.
I disagree. i think it would be a niche product for a niche market. The only way it wouldwork is if you forced people to buy a book of 500 races to get elf, dwarf, halfling, and/or human. And then you'd be causing a ton of resentment.[/quote]Accor
Agree MAperson. I did buy alot of splats in 3rd ed but after 60-70 I got off the spat book train. One thing I have noticed in 2nd ed through to 4th ed the best splats are usually the earlier ones usually the 1st class splats for the 4 classes, Complete Fighter/Warrior (arcane/divine power etc in 4th). THen a PHB2 type books comes along and it is often good as well and then the class splats go off a cliff in terms of quality/usefullness.
Agree MAperson. I did buy alot of splats in 3rd ed but after 60-70 I got off the spat book train. One thing I have noticed in 2nd ed through to 4th ed the best splats are usually the earlier ones usually the 1st class splats for the 4 classes, Comple
As it matures a quality hardcover book every 6 months is reasonable. Adventure paths and campaign materials and supplements monthly is desireable.
if D&D follows the Paizo model it will be a success. Don't overly focus on internal digital content and offerings, let hero lab do the character generator and make a free SRD like the PRD. The D&D compendium shouldn't be behind a pay wall. Pay wall D&D is really an anathema to the TRPG genre.
know your audience
As it matures a quality hardcover book every 6 months is reasonable. Adventure paths and campaign materials and supplements monthly is desireable.if D&D follows the Paizo model it will be a success. Don't overly focus on internal digital content and
A book of races would be purchased By most players as a useful resource.
I disagree. i think it would be a niche product for a niche market. The only way it wouldwork is if you forced people to buy a book of 500 races to get elf, dwarf, halfling, and/or human. And then you'd be causing a ton of resentment.
According to Paizo at PaizoCon 2012 the Advanced race guide filled with weird, strange, and odd non-standard races seems to have been adopted quite successfully amongst the Paizo customer base. Niche product when rolled out as a big comprehensive resource? I think not.
Oh yeah I LOVE ARG from Pathfinder! I built my very own fey :D I think it makes for a lot of fun for the players and the DM to build their own villain if they want something special. Also it allows for creating a more exotic race. Personally, its the best splat book because its extremely useful. If your players want fey then you can tell them how much rp to use and they can build their own. If they want a gnome or elf with abilities to be swapped then you can do that as well. Its a great book and would be amazing if WoTC created a similar one.
I disagree. i think it would be a niche product for a niche market. The only way it wouldwork is if you forced people to buy a book of 500 races to get elf, dwarf, halfling, and/or human. And then you'd be causing a ton of resentment.[/quote]Accor
A book of races would be purchased By most players as a useful resource.
I disagree. i think it would be a niche product for a niche market. The only way it wouldwork is if you forced people to buy a book of 500 races to get elf, dwarf, halfling, and/or human. And then you'd be causing a ton of resentment.
According to Paizo at PaizoCon 2012 the Advanced race guide filled with weird, strange, and odd non-standard races seems to have been adopted quite successfully amongst the Paizo customer base. Niche product when rolled out as a big comprehensive resource? I think not.
Oh yeah I LOVE ARG from Pathfinder! I built my very own fey :D I think it makes for a lot of fun for the players and the DM to build their own villain if they want something special. Also it allows for creating a more exotic race. Personally, its the best splat book because its extremely useful. If your players want fey then you can tell them how much rp to use and they can build their own. If they want a gnome or elf with abilities to be swapped then you can do that as well. Its a great book and would be amazing if WoTC created a similar one.
Yeah, the ARG has been tons of fun and pretty well balanced too as a guideline for homebrew. I've made tons of weird spelljammer and planescape style races that I hope see use in a space/time travel campaign I want to run (I might switch it over to D&D Next if the campaign continues for a while)
I disagree. i think it would be a niche product for a niche market. The only way it wouldwork is if you forced people to buy a book of 500 races to get elf, dwarf, halfling, and/or human. And then you'd be causing a ton of resentment.[/quote]Accor
As long as dragonborn are still a core race I'll be very happy. I'd like to see some "monster" races available from the start to shake things up a bit.
As long as dragonborn are still a core race I'll be very happy. I'd like to see some "monster" races available from the start to shake things up a bit.
Oh yeah I LOVE ARG from Pathfinder! I built my very own fey :D I think it makes for a lot of fun for the players and the DM to build their own villain if they want something special. Also it allows for creating a more exotic race. Personally, its the best splat book because its extremely useful. If your players want fey then you can tell them how much rp to use and they can build their own. If they want a gnome or elf with abilities to be swapped then you can do that as well. Its a great book and would be amazing if WoTC created a similar one.
Indeed. A series of good 'build your own' books for classes, races and such would be very welcome.
Indeed. A series of good 'build your own' books for classes, races and such would be very welcome.
As long as dragonborn are still a core race I'll be very happy. I'd like to see some "monster" races available from the start to shake things up a bit.
As long as dragonborns have tails. I just can't picture a dragon without a tail. Make them non-functional but give them a tail. Anything that looks like a lizard should have a tail.
As long as dragonborns have tails. I just can't picture a dragon without a tail. Make them non-functional but give them a tail. Anything that looks like a lizard should have a tail.
As long as dragonborn are still a core race I'll be very happy. I'd like to see some "monster" races available from the start to shake things up a bit.
As long as dragonborns have tails. I just can't picture a dragon without a tail. Make them non-functional but give them a tail. Anything that looks like a lizard should have a tail.
So, just give yours a tail. Problem solved. If it's purely cosmetic, it's just fluff, and your dragonborn can look like whatever you want.
As long as dragonborns have tails. I just can't picture a dragon without a tail. Make them non-functional but give them a tail. Anything that looks like a lizard should have a tail.[/quote]So, just give yours a tail. Problem solved. If it's pure
It's like with Crytek. They KNOW they can push out another Crysis game, but one of the reasons we aren't getting another TimeSplitters is because it's a niche audience (which makes me sad), but that's business for you. It's not a happy world and tons of folks get left in the dust more often than not. HOWEVER, there is a chance that DDN will accomodate multiple modules if enough people use the power of voice. There's still hope that DDN will have options for everyone, after all. Combine the base with the niche and you have an expansive audience.
