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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 12:13AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2007
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So here's a question: if coup de grace is a problem when deciding to easily heal downed characters, why not remove coup de grace from the game? 99% of the time, a monster at 0 hit points isn't ever going to get back up, so other than being a mechanic that autokills dying players, what's it there for?
To let players abuse Sleep? Yeah, I can live without that, lol.
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 12:19AM
#22
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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The idea behind negative HP is that you are less likely to die from simply bleeding out than you are from bleeding out while on fire.
That does not require HP to be tracked into the negatives to accomplish.
Example: the 3rd edition D&D design crew could have incorporated the number "10" into how many HP are between a character being disabled and a character being dead by stating that each character has HP equal to 10 + those gained from their Hit Dice and Constitution modifier, and then had the exact same rules for what happens at 0 HP and below happen at 10 HP and below.
That same principle can be used with Pathfinder's "death at negative Constitution" and D&DN's current "death at negative (Constitution+Level)" and never have to have a notation involved that implies you are somehow in HP debt.
I mean... sure, they could have done that. It would be mathematically identical. I think HP 0 is a more intuitive point to say "I'm so hurt I've stopped functioning" than HP 10 or HP Con + Level is though (I can picture people going below a positive threshold and not realizing that they've fallen unconscious).
HP is abstract anyway, so I don't see that -10 to X makes more or less sense than 0 to X + 10. HP barely makes sense at all if you look at it too closely (which is why I generally don't). HP 0 doesn't mean "I'm precisely out of health, energy, luck, divine favor and assorted mystic factors"; the system isn't that granular.
<Ioun> they're apparently making a MolIsCool pp
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 1:03AM
#23
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Date Joined:
May 27, 2012
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It helps if you think of HP as actual wounds
No, it most certainly does not, and here is why: anyone can kill anyone else with a single stab wound.
If HP are actually measurements of the severity of a wound, then the maximum HP anyone could ever have would have to be within the damage range of even the least threatening of daggers.
Also, that just plain isn't what hit points are described as.
In every edition to date, a single non-magical dagger strike has been perfectly capable of killing any character (barring very unusual character traits, like if a character is a construct or undead). That most character are competent enough to turn that lethal strike into a less-lethal one, as long as they aren't entirely helpless in the situation, does not diminish the fact that any weapon can kill someone from full HP all the way to actual death in one go.
Supporting evidence aside,* and specifically on the topic at hand, you should at least be able to think of the sub-zero HP as being purely physical. The playtest packet even calls out zero HP as when damage applies directly to the meat.** Since we know you've been severely hurt whenever your HP are below zero, it shouldn't be much of a stretch to say that a more damaging hit that knocks you further below zero results in greater injury that puts you closer to death and further from recovery.
*Damage Types, in the How to Play document: "All damage has a type. The type of damage an attack deals helps describe how a creature or an object is being harmed when it loses hit points." To put that another way: When an attack deals damage, lost hit points represent actual harm done to the creature. **Hit Points, in the How to Play document: "An attack that reduces you to 0 hit points or fewer strikes you directly, leaving a bleeding injury or other trauma, or it simply knocks you unconscious."
The metagame is not the game.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 3:07AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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woot HP disagreement time. Seriously though, do we have to have this discussion again? Nobody agrees and the rules allow for both interpretations so let's just agree to disagree and look at the pure mechanical advantage of this rule. I don't see any advantage at all. It doesn't help with the incongrous nature of 0 HP/negative HP. The negative HP cushion is nowhere near enough to really consider in any event because the damage dealt per attack balloons out so much that it engulfs the margin (20-25 at lvl 20), it doesn't make fights faster. It doesn't even make things easier to understand. I can see plenty of disadvantages though. It allows the coup de grace thing which is hella lame, it drains spells and other healing resources faster than ever before in a playtest that (sensibly) reduces the number of spells available in the first place, it creates an inconsistency with how healing spells work by making HP below 0 not work like HP above 0. It actually has the potential of extending combat tremendously 'cause it ties up characters for 2 rounds if they really want to get that dude back up, which means it's double the time spent not ending the encounter. It's just a bad idea. Actually there is one advantage: it's easy to ignore.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 3:13AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2007
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Sounds like a reasonable argument, kadim.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 4:10AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2012
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The poll didn't cover my feelings on the issue, so I didn't vote  I like that you don't have to calculate healing from minus *whatever*, anymore (less math). But this of course leads to whack-a-mole combats, so something has to change. I'd suggest making it so that anyone taken below 0 HP (who is therefore knocked unconcious), doesn't immediately regain consciousness at positive hitpoints unless they are healed to full HP. Perhaps they should stay unconscious for a few rounds, as the mind needs to recover from the shock. This way, even if they're taking extra damage while down (aoe stuff usually) they won't die if they've been healed up some. They'll still be vulnerable to coup de grace, but the NPC's won't need to do that since nobody is getting back up three seconds after they've been taken out anymore.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 6:01AM
#27
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I voted I don't like it, but its more to the issue. I don't like it from at-will powers, but only during combat. I actually like that it can get people back on their feat outside of combat. I don't know, but there should be some sort of penalty for using it in combat. Maybe people who were unconscience the previous round attack needs to make a con save to act for a few rounds.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 6:15AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2012
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I voted I don't like it, but its more to the issue. I don't like it from at-will powers, but only during combat. I actually like that it can get people back on their feat outside of combat. I don't know, but there should be some sort of penalty for using it in combat. Maybe people who were unconscience the previous round attack needs to make a con save to act for a few rounds.
well i know i and some others on these forums run that you are concious, not necessarrily awake and up
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 6:35AM
#29
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I chose "c", offer options. Heal from 0 is a good baseline but give DMs the option of doing or dumping.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 6:58AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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I can't really think of a reason not to like it. I mean, it's not a big deal, but... Well, yeah, it's not a big deal.
It is a very big deal to some, not me, but some.
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