Congrats Oma, you show how you fail to miss what is being discussed or the rules at all. I was refering to Circumstance Modifiers and not skill DCs
Secondly the PHB is the Source Book for action types, and the DMG here is wrong as no "standard rule" has ever been stipulated. But as a normal fair call, if somethign is only "technically" a trigger but otherwise is obviously not the intention of the player, then it would be skipped and the readied action kept, I would believe there is a general expectation that the DM allows the player to opt out of illegitimate triggers.
ie a player said "I am going to cover the doorway with a readied action to shoot any coming out" most DMs would not consider a friend coming out the door, yelling "don't shoot, it's me" first, as being included in the trigger because it is too obvious and would allow them to hold it due to the obvious intent.
The same with "shoot an enemy that comes out of the forest" waiting to get a decent shot (ie not shooting an enemy that peeks around the tree with 3/4 cover and concealment) is another case of while technically being a trigger, is obviously not an intended target,
Or you say you will shoot any orc coming around the corner and the orc comes out at full speed, tumbling, and it would really be considered impossible for you to make the shot. While technically it is the trigger, there is no way you can get the shot off and so continue waiting.
The DMG makes a nice ruling on how the DM should do this.
As far as circumstane modifiers are concerned, determining your firen is not an orc or valid trigger is one thing, determining if an orc is "orcy enough" is another.
im not saying that this are the circumstance bonus, i was saying that you are wrong in think that the Example is a easy task, as normal the circunstance bonus are +1,+2,+5,+10 (or the same in negative) in the example you will gain +5 in your check if the target is a close friend and if the target is your son or your loved one you will gain +10
now lets check what you was saying:
""anyone casting a spell" He would make a wisdom check of DC 20 (14+6) to attempt to skip this trigger"
you use a set DC of 20 then this not are circumstance bonus you are Setting a DC for a task, if you going to use circumstance bonus you will need say ""anyone casting a spell" He would make a wisdom check of DC 15 and take an circumstance penalty of -1 for each level of the spell (-6) in her check to attempt to skip this trigger""
this have non-sense because is hard know if someone is your friend in one second but not recognize an enemy that you already know as enemy.
See the context of the example or what tempes saying he let use INT or DEX because in this example you make a CHECK to gain the control again your reflexes because in the example you are readied to shoot to anything you see then you make a check to know if you can recognize the target before shoot, in this case if you fail your check you shoot the arrow at any signal of other creature and then you recognize it as your friend and say "ho no I was shoot again my friend" in the other part if you success your check you look an signal of other creature but you quickly recognize him as your friend and you hold your ready and say "uff i almost hit my friend" and you still are holding the arrow for a next trigger.
BUt i need say sorry to StevenO he was right the DMG say that you need say what spell your going to cast in your ready.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Your arguing stupity again Oma, I never said that making the wisdom check was easy, I said recognizing that your friend isn't a monster is easy.
If you can't at a glance tell the difference between your Nymph lover who've you have an intimate relationship with and a towering minotaur.
As for the use of Circumstance Modifiers, they can be applied to either the check or the DC, or both, and it's a point that isn't relevant as it amounts to the same thing. And is just a quick example, there are a number of ways such circumstance modifers could be applied including "Nop, oma, you can't do that" by your DM.
As for the use of Circumstance Modifiers, they can be applied to either the check or the DC, or both, and it's a point that isn't relevant as it amounts to the same thing. And is just a quick example, there are a number of ways such circumstance modifers could be applied including "Nop, oma, you can't do that" by your DM.
Again from the DMG (page 30, under Skill and Ability Checks):
THE DM’S BEST FRIEND A favorable circumstance gives a character a +2 bonus on a skill check (or a –2 modifier to the DC) and an unfavorable one gives a –2 penalty on the skill check (or a +2 modifier to the DC). Take special note of this rule, for it may be the only one you’ll need. Mialee runs down a dungeon corridor, running from a beholder. Around the corner ahead wait two ogres. Does Mialee hear the ogres getting ready to make their ambush? The DM calls for a Listen check and rules that her running from the beholder makes it less likely that she’s listening carefully: –2 penalty on the check. But one of the ogres is readying a portcullis trap, and the cranking winch of the device makes a lot of noise: –2 modifier to the DC. Also, Mialee has heard from another adventurer that the ogres in this dungeon like to ambush adventurers: +2 bonus on the check. Her ears are still ringing from the shout spell that she cast at the beholder: –2 penalty on the check. The dungeon is already noisy because of the sound of the roaring dragon on the level below: +2 modifier to the DC. You can add modifiers endlessly (doing so is not really a good thing, since it slows down play), but the point is, other than the PC’s Listen check modifier, the only numbers that the DM and the player need to remember when calculating all the situational modifiers are +2 and –2. Multiple conditions add up to give the check a total modifier and the DC a final value.
So althogh the DC on that Wisdom check is 15, it can be modified to have a lower DC (you're recognizing a friend in silver armor instead of an orc in animal hides), a higher DC (your friend is a half-orc and shouldn't have been the first one through the door), a lower check (you're distracted because there's a lot of fighting around you) or a higher check (you've done this specific tactic countless times in the past). The situation determines how things fall above or below the 15.
And that's only if your DM decides to use the 15. They could also say "you can skip the trigger but lose the ready", or they could say "you skip the trigger and keep the ready". This is all very situational and very much in the DM's hands, and as such, this argument (since it's being made in absentia of a particular DM) will not really be fruitful.
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
Your arguing stupity again Oma, I never said that making the wisdom check was easy, I said recognizing that your friend isn't a monster is easy.
If you can't at a glance tell the difference between your Nymph lover who've you have an intimate relationship with and a towering minotaur.
As for the use of Circumstance Modifiers, they can be applied to either the check or the DC, or both, and it's a point that isn't relevant as it amounts to the same thing. And is just a quick example, there are a number of ways such circumstance modifers could be applied including "Nop, oma, you can't do that" by your DM.
you again are saying that recognizeing that your friend isn't a moster is easy 0.0??? lol
again see the context of the example and why it use a wisdom check (common sense, perception, and intuition)
Now under the Monster manula the Human is a monster, then if you are readied an arrow again someone that you know that are coming from a blind spot (like when a door exist and you are and can only see inside the room) you will shoot the arrow at the first signal that someone are coming, but you can make a Wisdom Check DC 15 (Tough task as described) to take a chance of recognizing your friend before you shoot the arrow that is almost an instant, this not easy at all as you was saying is very hard for it the DC of 15.
Now in other way if you know that the 3 monster are your oponent and you are in ready if someone are triying to attack your party members this let you an +5 in your check because you only need have a focus to dont be impatientand be prudent to use your Shoot to the more dangerous target, as example if you fail your check you shoot the arrow to the first trigger when he only cast a little magic missile but you was too anxious and shoot quickly wiout think in that the next wizard can cast a more powerful spell.
And not the circumstance bonus never are add in the DC are bonus or penalties in a CHECK
The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.
Circumstance Bonus (From the PHB pag 306 and D&D 3.5 Official Web Glossary Primary Source) A bonus granted because of specific conditional factors favorable to the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same benefit. For instance, a magnifying glass gives a +2 circumstance bonus on Appraise checks involving any item that is small or highly detailed, such as a gem. If you had a second tool that also granted a circumstance bonus from improved visual acuity (such as a jeweler's loupe), the circumstance bonuses wouldn't stack.
And the Standard is that you can always Hold Your ready unlike other Strong Factor appears like in the example because recognize a friendso quicklyis not easy and more when you need open 2 fingers to shoot an arrow and you are focused in do that.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Thank You Tempest, this is also dicussed as Favorable and Unfavorable conditions in the PHB, that is if one reads the rules to understand them rather then simply find sources of misquotes.
Isn't it just great when one issue gets "solved" and another that is just slightly related to it emmerges?
With Tempest's post (surprise someone else didn't pick that one out sooner) which I'd sum up as "while Ready can technically be held a DM is well within his or her rights to do something if a trigger is ignored." That can clearly go back to my question that "if a trigger can be freely ignored then why have a trigger to begin with?" and it would seem the asnwer is "because no DM should allow that." If it is not automatic, and let's be honest a DC 15 WIS check shouldn't be automatic, then I have a lot less trouble accepting that a Ready can be held through a trigger. I also agree that the difficulty of "holding" Ready should be related to how specific the trigger may be along with what event is doing the triggering; to put it another way if it is truely obvious that you wouldn't want to take an action it is easier to ignore then something that is barely noticable.
Now you know something, I'm amazed that Oma is getting upset by the idea of modifiers to a check which is now obviously optional and at the DMs discression. It is now clear that "the standard rule is that the character can keep his action readied," and when it says that you don't need to argue about how anyone else except your own DM will follow up. Based on that line it is clear you can set up the most vague trigger you like and then ignore it every time it comes up without any issues unless the DM says otherwise.
StevenO, I beleive it is a matter of context, as I suggested earlier, the DM shoudl make fair interpretations of the rules. In this case there is a good chance that when the trigger conditions occur they might be only "technically" meeting the conditions. "I will cover the door and shoot anyone who comes out" obviously didn't intend to shoot his friend coming out, so it merits skipping the trigger as the trigger is only "technicaly correct" the same in some other examples I gave where the trigger is only technically correct or the pc couldn't otherwise be able to hit the target.
This is leaps and bounds between being able to freely pick and choose your trigger, there is a difference between an obviously incorrect trigger and trying to abuse the rules to bypass the need for a trigger entirely. This is supported in the FAQ info sited and the fact that skipping a trigger is changing the conditions.
My objection is on the notion of completely and freely bypassing the need for a trigger entirely as was being suggested, the DMG rule here offers a very nice interpretation.
This is leaps and bounds between being able to freely pick and choose your trigger, there is a difference between an obviously incorrect trigger and trying to abuse the rules to bypass the need for a trigger entirely. This is supported in the FAQ info sited and the fact that skipping a trigger is changing the conditions.
Skipping a trigger doesn't change the conditions.
If you manage to skip one trigger instance for another it just means that your conditions allowed for more than one instance to occur. And it's up to the DM to stop that getting out of hand in either direction (either being too specific, or too general).
My objection is on the notion of completely and freely bypassing the need for a trigger entirely as was being suggested, the DMG rule here offers a very nice interpretation.
In most cases, it's unimportant whether or not you're bypassing the trigger, since you end up acting for the circumstance that you wanted in the first place (regardless of whether or not you specified it precisely). If you wanted to shoot at the orc leader to start with, and you end up shooting at the orc leader, it really doesn't matter whether or not you used a broader set of conditions and skipped a bunch of orcs.
The optional rule is handy for adjudicating circumstances where the situation changes from what the readying character would have expected, like choosing not to shoot if that orc leader is safely behind a tower shield when you see him.
Looking at this issue has certainly given me a greater appreciation for the flexibility and usefulness of the ready action, since skipping triggers allows a character to respond in a much more natural way (the tradeoff for being to act at the right moment is that they're delaying all their future actions until the round after they act).
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Slagger, we have the answer in the DMG guide that allows a good way for the DMs to handle the propose scenerios.
But yes not taking a set condition is changing the condition. If you say Condition is X, and then refuse to take X to instead look for something different, then you've changed the condition to X+Y. This is irrefutable logic. If the condition was not changed then there would be no reason to have not shot at the first trigger, so as much as you can jump up and down and call them the same conditions, they are in fact different conditions.
I am not concerned with someone skipping an illegitimate target that only technically matches the conditions, and I would be fine with them going after what they had intended with at the start, even if poorly expressed (some leeway needs to be there), The DMG rules here allow for a fair process of skipping that trigger. But really if you intend to go after a particular target, then why not specify that target to ensure you can fire at it when the time comes?
But here we aren't refering to a player who is intent on a particular target from the start, since he could have simply called for that target. We are talking about a player who simply wants to bypass the need for any trigger conditions completely, as in "I will shoot at .... something ... sometime .... some reason .... meh, whatever ..." and then set the condition after the fact. Or have the final trigger condition not even closely resemble the original condition at all in the event the DM insists he is more specific.
I believe there is a reasonable expectation that there be an understandable trigger condition. It is one thing to say "hey when I said I would cover the door and shoot at anyone, in these orc infested caverns, I obviously didn't mean that would include my halfling friend." it's another to be intentionally bypassing any need for a condition entirely.
Slagger, we have the answer in the DMG guide that allows a good way for the DMs to handle the propose scenerios.
But yes not taking a set condition is changing the condition. If you say Condition is X, and then refuse to take X to instead look for something different, then you've changed the condition to X+Y. This is irrefutable logic. If the condition was not changed then there would be no reason to have not shot at the first trigger, so as much as you can jump up and down and call them the same conditions, they are in fact different conditions.
I am not concerned with someone skipping an illegitimate target that only technically matches the conditions, and I would be fine with them going after what they had intended with at the start, even if poorly expressed (some leeway needs to be there), The DMG rules here allow for a fair process of skipping that trigger. But really if you intend to go after a particular target, then why not specify that target to ensure you can fire at it when the time comes?
But here we aren't refering to a player who is intent on a particular target from the start, since he could have simply called for that target. We are talking about a player who simply wants to bypass the need for any trigger conditions completely, as in "I will shoot at .... something ... sometime .... some reason .... meh, whatever ..." and then set the condition after the fact. Or have the final trigger condition not even closely resemble the original condition at all in the event the DM insists he is more specific.
I believe there is a reasonable expectation that there be an understandable trigger condition. It is one thing to say "hey when I said I would cover the door and shoot at anyone, in these orc infested caverns, I obviously didn't mean that would include my halfling friend." it's another to be intentionally bypassing any need for a condition entirely.
nop, only if you change your ready, if you "MAY" wainting for X and some X appears you can take it or not, and when other X appears again you can take it or not.
REMEMBER DE OFFICIAL STANDARD don't have any restriction the other are variant's that the DM can apply if the situation is complicated.
as described in the example you are in ready to shoot all your reflexes are focused in shoot the arrow and if someone are coming, is hard recognize the target and handle your body to don't shoot.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
