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Switch to Forum Live View Wizard balance within the wizard class
6 months ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 2:02PM #1
The_Celric
Date Joined: Dec 9, 2009
Posts: 47
I don't understand the disparity between the power levels of the different traditions of Wizard, how it came about, and why it needs to be there. I'm hoping that I'm misinterpreting the rules as described.

Scholar:  4 cantrips, 1 extra spell/spell level prepared, 4 first level spells to start, 2 spells learned/level, ability to cast rituals.

Evoker:  3 cantrips, 3 first level spells to start, 1 spell learned/level, energy substitution to one type, allied protection to area effect spells, resistance to one elemental damage type.

Illusionist:  3 cantrips, 3 first level spells to start, Increased DC to illusion spells, advantage to detect illusions.

So, on paper, the scholar and evoker look pretty much even, while the illusionist is nerfed. Here are the things that I don't like.

1) Why can't all spellcasters cast rituals? Something mechanical, not "you spent too much time trying to figure out how to cast snowball from fireball". For balance, I get that being able to have special abilities (energy sub, etc) is pretty nice, but c'mon! The wizard lives and dies by his spells and the scholar can cast any ritual he knows whenever he wants.

2) Spell selection disparity. Uh, I don't understand this one at all. Why can the scholar learn more spells and prepare more spells than everyone else? If they get the ability to cast rituals willy-nilly, and we assume that feature balances the increase to illusion DC's and adv to detect them, then why wouldn't the other specialist classes not get something like this as well? I get the idea of "your intense study of a broad range of magic ,blah, blah, blah", but if you're going to tell me that a specialist, like an evoker or illusionist, has studied less intensely, then I'd hazzard to call you out to a spell duel. More spells per level learned makes perfect sense, but do they really need to be able to prep more too? If so, then what balances that extra spell out, machanically or story-wise, with the fact that the Evoker can't prep an additional evocation spell/spell level, or learn 1 spell + 1 evocation spell per level?
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6 months ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 4:35PM #2
Eisenritter
Date Joined: Oct 16, 2009
Posts: 1,046
Scholar tradition needs to not exist.  Generalist spellcasters are the bowel obstruction that killed the old universe. Yell
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6 months ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 4:56PM #3
xladyfayre
Date Joined: Dec 21, 2012
Posts: 709
As it stands thee is absolutely no reason to play any tradition other than scholar. That's a problem. They should all be equal in power but have different flavors. I agree with Eisenritter, scholar shouldn't exist. There should be other flavors of wizard that gain all the same things in different flavors. I think that there should also be an Elemental school as well but honestly you can achieve that within Evoker. Perhaps an enchanter or transmutation school
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6 months ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 6:32PM #4
AaronOfBarbaria
Date Joined: Sep 25, 2007
Posts: 3,848
The illusionist is currently a bit weak, excepting that the Illusion spell DC increase is actually significantly powerful with the current saving throw system and that illusions in general are very nebulous as to their actual effect by design and so as written could be the most powerful wizard tradition in the right campaign or under the right DM.

The other two are fairly well balanced because the Evoker gets a lot more "boom" for a decrease in versatility, and the scholar has basically nothing but versatility.

...and as for the idea that generalist wizards are somehow detrimental (in a way that all other wizards aren't) that is just bonkers - the whole point of them is that they don't have any particular failings when it comes to magic and because of that are also not as potent in any area as a specialist. If a generalist can break something, then by definition a specialist can break it easier or with more flair.
Careful, man.  That much logic might be illegal on the internet. - Salla
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6 months ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 6:53PM #5
AlmightyK
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2012
Posts: 544

Jan 9, 2013 -- 6:32PM, AaronOfBarbaria wrote:

The illusionist is currently a bit weak, excepting that the Illusion spell DC increase is actually significantly powerful with the current saving throw system and that illusions in general are very nebulous as to their actual effect by design and so as written could be the most powerful wizard tradition in the right campaign or under the right DM.

The other two are fairly well balanced because the Evoker gets a lot more "boom" for a decrease in versatility, and the scholar has basically nothing but versatility.

...and as for the idea that generalist wizards are somehow detrimental (in a way that all other wizards aren't) that is just bonkers - the whole point of them is that they don't have any particular failings when it comes to magic and because of that are also not as potent in any area as a specialist. If a generalist can break something, then by definition a specialist can break it easier or with more flair.



not to mention the evocation specs battle tactician ability is amazing. imagine it, a fireball into the middle of a battle and avoid ALL your party members

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6 months ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 7:04PM #6
Eisenritter
Date Joined: Oct 16, 2009
Posts: 1,046

Jan 9, 2013 -- 6:32PM, AaronOfBarbaria wrote:


...and as for the idea that generalist wizards are somehow detrimental (in a way that all other wizards aren't) that is just bonkers - the whole point of them is that they don't have any particular failings when it comes to magic and because of that are also not as potent in any area as a specialist. If a generalist can break something, then by definition a specialist can break it easier or with more flair.




Taking into account WotC's track record with magic, you're wrong.  One extra spell per day, at each spell level.  Looking at the wizard's advancement chart, I note that the three highest spell levels only get 1 slot each, ever.  I would imagine there's a reason for this.

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6 months ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 8:12PM #7
AlmightyK
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2012
Posts: 544

Jan 9, 2013 -- 7:04PM, Eisenritter wrote:

Jan 9, 2013 -- 6:32PM, AaronOfBarbaria wrote:


...and as for the idea that generalist wizards are somehow detrimental (in a way that all other wizards aren't) that is just bonkers - the whole point of them is that they don't have any particular failings when it comes to magic and because of that are also not as potent in any area as a specialist. If a generalist can break something, then by definition a specialist can break it easier or with more flair.




Taking into account WotC's track record with magic, you're wrong.  One extra spell per day, at each spell level.  Looking at the wizard's advancement chart, I note that the three highest spell levels only get 1 slot each, ever.  I would imagine there's a reason for this.



you may have misread scholarly wizard.
they can only prepare an extra spell of each level. it doesnt give you any extra casting

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6 months ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 8:12PM #8
Eisenritter
Date Joined: Oct 16, 2009
Posts: 1,046
The only spells that matter are the three highest levels you can cast.
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6 months ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 9:52PM #9
The_Celric
Date Joined: Dec 9, 2009
Posts: 47
Correction: The energy substitution thing was a feat that anyone could take.

I'm unsure what your reasoning is behind "the scholar tradition doesn't need to exist". I think that there's a good place for it, I just don't like the fact that it's currently overshadowing the other specialists

You can't cast a second spell at the higher levels, but you can prepare a second spell and choose which one you'd rather cast.

I like the fact that you can have a generalist wizard, but really, I also think that the balancing act between the different flavors of wizard should feel more like different flavors. Your illusionist is going to be a totally different caster than your evoker would be, just like the generalist should be different from a necromancer. I love the ability to exclude people from an attack spell, because it really captures the feeling of having mastery over your chosen specialty.  Giving the Illusionist better mastery over peoples minds (raising the DC of illusion spells) seems appropriate as well. If the generalist only got the additional ability to cast rituals I think that would be okay, but I think that coupling that with more spells/level and more prepared spells/level is too big of a jump.

Actually, if the traditions were done so that the generalist could cast rituals, the evoker could have the elemental resistance and spell exclusion, and the illusionist his increased DC and advantage to detect illusions, period, then that would work for me. In addition, I think that all wizards should be able to have at least one spell per spell level prepared for free. The generalist could chose any spell he knew; the specialists only a spell of their school. Then let them all have the same PC level +1 additional spells prepared. I like that a lot better. Comments?
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6 months ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 12:27AM #10
Molecule
Date Joined: Jan 15, 2009
Posts: 1,962

Jan 9, 2013 -- 8:12PM, Eisenritter wrote:

The only spells that matter are the three highest levels you can cast.




But... it doesn't let you cast any extra spells.  It lets you prepare extra spells.  You're still casting one level 6, one level 7, one level 8, and one level 9 a day.

<Ioun> they're apparently making a MolIsCool pp
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