Well, we finally finished the Heroic Tier of our long, long campaign. They loved it, since they were shocked to find the evil guy they killed was a seal to prevent the true baddie from going out, and now they have to travel and find a way to stop this evil deity (which will be the last battle of our campaign during heroic). I received some possitive feedback from my players, and I was glad. I ran the "DM ask to players" quizz to htem and I found out the following:
1.- They like straightforward campaigns with allready planned plots, I put a kibosh on that one 2.- They want to have more NPC interactions, specially one of the guys who loves romance and every session he's flirting with the NPC he loves... kinda freaky but it's ok 3.- We're all kids of the anime and console gaming generation... they want me to be sort of a more "Devil May Cary/.hack//" action oriented narrator, I mean, it's paragon and they don't want to feel like farmers with swords anymore... 4.- All of them agreed they want me to see challenge them with... A GRAVITY PUZZLE?! 5.- They don't want to see a Gelatinouc Cube, EVER again... they have one as a pet already. 6.- The Fighter with the Fey Beast Tamer theme is really bored with the fey beasts the theme grants, and wants something more custom... 7.- They all want to be in more anime-like japanese comedy situations ¬¬ Guess that's whhat happens when you run an anime-like campaign 8.- They want me to create a collisseum so they can freely fight against monsters and earn money, I've tought abbout it but I don't know how to make it work, they could use it to gain levels at heart's content, UNLESS I don't give them XP and I convert the monster XP value into gold to give them to players, dunno... 9.- They want more vehicle based combat, but I don't even know if I did it right last time... we fought against an Aereal Kraken with a battle Airship, and the only figurines we used were the Kraken and the Airship, and the players just took standard actions to attack from the ship when within the Kraken's range, and the kraken could target anyone within range and that was on the docks. 10.- They actually want more combats, more interesting, I've tried already protect the civilians and escape with an object combats, and they hated them even more than fighting gelly cubes. 11.- They think Solo monsters are too easy... they just spam their remaning at-will and the cleric can heal them as if she had the best medicine on earth since her at-wills and abilities are optimized for that sole purpose... they've never been challenged by a SOlo, but they've at least had fun with some of them...
1: having a basic plot idea isn't bad, but if you want the more reckless and wild style, good luck. 2: if he want's romance, be sure he has a session of having to go to the temple and explain to the priest why he needs a "remove affliction" or "Cure disease" ritual. 2 or 3 of those should calm him down a bit. Or an actual girlfriend. 3: I'm to old to know what that means 4: There is one in Halls of Undermountain you could borrow and level up. 5: Introduce them to Green Slime, Grey Ooze, and Blood Elemental. 6: Well, the last thing you will see of theme powers is the lvl10 bonus. After that, he needs to look at the paragon path. That should keep him going. If he is tired of the theme, he can retrain it, same as any skill, feat, or power, when he levels up. (but he does have to retrain any utility powers he took from the theme first) 7: Hentai tentacles? Time for a star-pact warlock villain to bring in abominations? 8: If they want to be gladiators, let them. If anything, it will save you work. They're booked at the colleseum. This week, the colleseum is flooded for the benefit of aquatic creatures. Next week, the roof will be closed for underdark dwellers. Audience members (for 5gp) can rent dark-vision glasses. And the theives guild has bribed the guards to throw extra monsters at the party so that they can make a killing with the bookies. Meanwhile, a rival team of gladiators is doing better than they with their encounters, so their merchandising is outperforming them. And if the party gets up to any hi-jinks in town, every witness will recognize them and report them to the watch. Fame has its consequences. The colleseum will give you tons of ways to quickly get adventures going. Bored of using the same map? Oh look, a bunch of monsters escaped and need to be recaptured (alive) before they destroy the city. Some of them have taken refuge in the tower of the senile mage: he has tons of dangerous equipment in his home, which which the monsters can arm themselves. Even he doesn't know or remember 1/2 of it (who's to say if something goes missing?) 9: Charriot race in the colleseum! With big spikey wheels! Pulled by exotic animals. The displacer-beast charriot is hard to focus on. The pegasus charriot is dropping bombs (alchemical or biological--you choose). The minotaur charriot is bull-rushing everything in sight. Have fun. Pirate ship raiding vessels outside of port. Get on a boat and act like bait. Ship-to-ship battle in the arena! See, it solves lots of problems 10: Different levels, more scenery, traps, monster that force movement... Can't tell you how funny it was when my dwarf smacked 2 monsters off the mountain plateau, only to watch them fall 200 feet to the bottom. 1-hit & out of the fight. Sure, it cost an action point, but since they both failed their saves to go prone... Still laughing about that one. 11: Solos have the problem of being ganged up on. Have a property of the solo somehow be that it sprouts minions. Force movement leave pieces behind, egg-sack bursts when bloodied or killed sending minions into a close burst 3, animates corpses in the graveyard as a minor action, or something else. There was a great (now ancient) dragon magazine article way back in 1st edition about "If your party is not challengec by ancient dragons, you're playing them wrong." Detailed a smart red dragon killing the party, except for one who ran away while down to fewer than 10 hp. Daze and Stun powers really nerf the solo. Give any that qualify Superior Will feat, so they can save against those at the beginning of their turn.
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Well, we finally finished the Heroic Tier of our long, long campaign. They loved it, since they were shocked to find the evil guy they killed was a seal to prevent the true baddie from going out, and now they have to travel and find a way to stop this evil deity (which will be the last battle of our campaign during heroic).
2.- They want to have more NPC interactions, specially one of the guys who loves romance and every session he's flirting with the NPC he loves... kinda freaky but it's ok
Advice: have the players determine aspects of the NPC interactions they want. When they approach someone, ask them what the NPC is like. Not everything, maybe, but some key details. As with all questions, form them to get answers you trust the players will not make you miserable with.
8.- They want me to create a collisseum so they can freely fight against monsters and earn money, I've tought abbout it but I don't know how to make it work, they could use it to gain levels at heart's content, UNLESS I don't give them XP and I convert the monster XP value into gold to give them to players, dunno...
You're not obligated to give out XP for fighting monsters. Some people don't use XP at all. If you want, the XP can come from other aspects of their time in the coliseum, such as uncovering a cheating scandal, or stopping some sabotage.
9.- They want more vehicle based combat, but I don't even know if I did it right last time... we fought against an Aereal Kraken with a battle Airship, and the only figurines we used were the Kraken and the Airship, and the players just took standard actions to attack from the ship when within the Kraken's range, and the kraken could target anyone within range and that was on the docks.
That's a fine way to do it, but would get pretty tiresome. Remember to have goals in combat that are more than just whittling HP.
10.- They actually want more combats, more interesting, I've tried already protect the civilians and escape with an object combats, and they hated them even more than fighting gelly cubes.
Then you have to ask them what would be an interesting challenge, and and interesting way to fail that challenge.
11.- They think Solo monsters are too easy... they just spam their remaning at-will and the cleric can heal them as if she had the best medicine on earth since her at-wills and abilities are optimized for that sole purpose... they've never been challenged by a SOlo, but they've at least had fun with some of them...
Alternate goals. And have other things going on, so that if they just stand and spam the solo with at-wills they still lose. A ritual that the minions around the room are working to complete, for instance. If they don't hunt down all the minions in three rounds then the solo ascends to god-hood, or whatever. They lose, even without dying.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
...is this the same campaign that you posted about on the charops like 2 weeks ago? The level 7 ones? If so, that's a pretty fast jump to go from 7-11.
Naturally you can play at your own pace, but for newish dm's we generally advise you take it kinda slow and get a feel for everything (taking on a lot at once can be overwhelming). Like your example with solo's, the level 15 party i DM for is pretty optimized, and they are all great players. I only use solo's from the mm3 or later, and the party completely fears seeing a solo. They actually said they feel 3-4 encounters in one day is easier than one solo in a day.
FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline. -Alcestis
If your party isn't taking down a solo in two rounds, there is no way they are optimised (the solos I face don't tend to last that long).
Or you are using better solos. (As my solos tend to last about 6-7 rounds in a mid-op group).
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
...is this the same campaign that you posted about on the charops like 2 weeks ago? The level 7 ones? If so, that's a pretty fast jump to go from 7-11.
Naturally you can play at your own pace, but for newish dm's we generally advise you take it kinda slow and get a feel for everything (taking on a lot at once can be overwhelming). Like your example with solo's, the level 15 party i DM for is pretty optimized, and they are all great players. I only use solo's from the mm3 or later, and the party completely fears seeing a solo. They actually said they feel 3-4 encounters in one day is easier than one solo in a day.
The Heroic tier was mostly a plot introduction to the reality of the world my players live in, Paragon was supposed to have all the heavy bowl of contents spilled on them. Kinda the first time I make this sort of quick advancement, it was pretty much a level per 2 sessions.
I'm still sorting things ut with them, but surely the advice provided is of great help
If your party isn't taking down a solo in two rounds, there is no way they are optimised (the solos I face don't tend to last that long).
Or you are using better solos. (As my solos tend to last about 6-7 rounds in a mid-op group).
The latter. I said 'pretty OP' but by CharOp standards they would be Mid-Op.
Further: I make sure all of my solo's are mm3 errata'd and with effect reduction and some fomrs of action recovery. They are 3-5 levels above the party, have really obnoxious terain (usually involving a skill challenge being run concurrently), and has a few other mobs thrown in for good measure.
They tend to end in 6-8 rounds, but require a lot of resource expenditure.
And if you still don't beleive me, i'll post all 5 of their builds and some maps of sample encounters i've done.
FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline. -Alcestis
If your party isn't taking down a solo in two rounds, there is no way they are optimised (the solos I face don't tend to last that long).
Or you are using better solos. (As my solos tend to last about 6-7 rounds in a mid-op group).
The latter. I said 'pretty OP' but by CharOp standards they would be Mid-Op.
Further: I make sure all of my solo's are mm3 errata'd and with effect reduction and some fomrs of action recovery. They are 3-5 levels above the party, have really obnoxious terain (usually involving a skill challenge being run concurrently), and has a few other mobs thrown in for good measure.
They tend to end in 6-8 rounds, but require a lot of research expenditure.
And if you still don't beleive me, i'll post all 5 of their builds and some maps of sample encounters i've done.
I'd read it if it was in another thread. I'm curious about the encounters more than your PCs. I mean, a well Opped group can sometimes kill a solo before it gets a turn, even one from MM3. Last time I faced a solo in my group we killed an at-level solo with just me (Bravlord) and the barbarian in 2 rounds.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here Spoiler:Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
