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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 10:26AM
#31
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2012
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I'm unsure who's myths you are speaking of.
The myths the character is familiar with. I bet if we looked long enough, we could find a canon, non-evil deity who is associated with poison, possibly even a Chaotic Good trickster god. Nature gods certainly wouldn't have strictures against venom use for defense or hunting. That's just the sort of confusing canon that fouls up D&D's simplistic alignment rules. In any case, such a god is plausible, so the player could suggest the inclusion of such a god and if the DM isn't having any then the DM probably has other reasons for not wanting poison use.
Poison's cause chemical reactions in the body. Not all are necessary negative. Using a plant to create a potion to save a life would revert a person's chemical reaction to normal but its still a chemical change.
As I stated Hercules used posion from the Hydra and he was considered by most to be heroic.
Here is an argument
A Paladin who wanted to stop evil monsters but ease their suffering would poison his blade under the idea that he hacks at the monster less and therefore quickens its end faster.
Glad you brought up Hercules.
As one of the early labors, Hercules acquires a deadly poison, but the labor doesn't count because Hercules had help in performing it. Adding injury to insult, part of the bounty of that labor led to Hercules' own demise... yep... died by the very poison he used.
Which reminds me of this conversation...
Wait, you might be on a train to better-DMing town.
Eventually he'll poison himself.
Nevermind.
And here are some synonyms for poisonous:
bad, baleful, baneful, corrupt, corruptive, dangerous, deadly, deleterious, destructive, detrimental, evil, fatal, hurtful, infective, lethal, malicious (wicked), malignant, malevolant (sinister), mephitic, miasmatic, morbid, vicious, viperous, virulent
And the ultimate trickster god, Loki... as PUNISHMENT for his most foul deeds, he was subjected to the most vile punishment the gods could imagine... he was bound beneath a serpent, which dripped it's vile venom onto him. Another case of the wielder of poison suffering from the poison he wields.
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells?
DM: Awesome. Yes.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 10:35AM
#32
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Again, refluffing is your friend.
If you wanna knock something out, and can't use 'poison' than have the local alchemist make you some ether or sleeping powder or something. Yeah, it may have the exact same mechanics as sleeping poison, but it isn't actually poison.
Ya see?
FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline.
-Alcestis
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 10:56AM
#33
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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Again, refluffing is your friend.
If you wanna knock something out, and can't use 'poison' than have the local alchemist make you some ether or sleeping powder or something. Yeah, it may have the exact same mechanics as sleeping poison, but it isn't actually poison.
Ya see?
Excellent, yes. Good point. The poison could even be reflavored as an enchantment or spell of some kind. If it's weapon-based, maybe the "poison" is actually just some arcane consumable you apply to the weapon. If it's slipped into a meal, then just reflavor it as a ritual scroll (or in 3.5 some other magical item) that can affect the target from afar.
Just another example of the inconsistency of alignment. Poison: univerally evil. Magic: only certain effects, and not even all of the ones that could exactly duplicate the effects of a poison and be used without the target's knowlege. The Paladin's Code (also inconsistent, but oh well) could cover some misuse of magic, but alignment itself could not, or at least does not, that I've ever seen, outside of clerical alignment restrictions.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 11:03AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2012
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My DM doesn't allow evil characters in campaigns--at all. If they are evil, they are immediately sent their own way.
He's got some major trust issues then. Here's the thing: from what I can tell, you didn't decide you were playing an evil character, he did. He's the one deciding that your character is evil. And if he'd decide that based on this, who knows what basis he'll pull out next time. Just let him do it, and make another character until you figure out what hoops you need to jump through to be allowed to play the game.
These aren't necessarily trust issues. It takes a slightly different way of thinking to make adventures that evil characters will be interested in. An important skill to DM for evil characters is to let the player be proactive. With good characters, the DM can simply make a villainous plot for the heroes to foil. And seems like there's always a villainous plot.
With evil characters as PCs, the DM must often take a more passive role. This is sometimes nice, but it also goes against many DM's personal preferences. A different type of adventure evolves when evil characters are playing. As DM, I find the intrigues of an evil party fascinating, but also miss the teamwork that is more prevalent with groups of like-minded good guys.
It might be that spirit of cooperation that makes the DM only allow good characters.
There are an infinite number of good characters to be played. Rather than jump through hoops, pick some good character you might be interested in.
You might ask the DM to let you play an evil character on a trial basis to see if he enjoys DM'ing for a villain. It might not be what he expects. He may actually enjoy it once he sees how much fun the plotting and paranoia can be. Or his biggest fears... in-party fighting grinding everything to a halt. That would be up to the players, I suppose.
If all else fails, you could offer to DM. Let him play an evil character and show him by example how the DM can set up adventures that players of evil characters can enjoy.
Or save that awesome evil guy for another DM's world. Good luck!
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells?
DM: Awesome. Yes.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 12:38PM
#35
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As I stated Hercules used posion from the Hydra and he was considered by most to be heroic.
Hercules was considered to be somewhat of a jerk in the legends, prone to fits of rage in which he killed people, including the cold blooded murder of his music teacher as a youth as well as throwing some people who angered him off his roof during a party. His enemy Hera used this tendency to get him into a blind rage in which he murdered his wife and children. His 12 tasks were penence for his brutal murder of his own family.
Anyways a Paladin's Code of Conduct: "requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. "
At best using poison would make the Ranger a non-lawful alignment.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 1:14PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Aug 15, 2011
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'Dishonorable' and 'evil' are not synonyms.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 1:26PM
#37
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'Dishonorable' and 'evil' are not synonyms.
This.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 2:19PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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What I don't get from this story is that it's implied that a single use of the poison will cause the DM to change the PC's alignment. This, regardless of anything else the PC may have done or do later, apparently. To my knowledge, there's no equivalent "good" act, for which the DM might tell an assassin, "Whelp, you've stepped in it now: you're good."
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 4:09PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2012
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'Dishonorable' and 'evil' are not synonyms.
This.
DM: Describe your character.
Player: He's a cheating, corrupt, crafty, crooked, deceitful, deceiving, devious, dishonest, double-faced, felonious, fraudulent, hypocritical, immoral, insincere, prevaricating, traitorous, treacherous, turncoat, underhanded, unscrupulous, untrustworthy dishonorable, toxic, poison-using chap. A saint, really.
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells?
DM: Awesome. Yes.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 4:12PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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"Not good" and "evil" are not synonyms.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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