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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 4:15PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2012
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As I stated Hercules used posion from the Hydra and he was considered by most to be heroic.
Hercules was considered to be somewhat of a jerk in the legends, prone to fits of rage in which he killed people, including the cold blooded murder of his music teacher as a youth as well as throwing some people who angered him off his roof during a party. His enemy Hera used this tendency to get him into a blind rage in which he murdered his wife and children. His 12 tasks were penence for his brutal murder of his own family.
Anyways a Paladin's Code of Conduct: "requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. "
At best using poison would make the Ranger a non-lawful alignment.
Actually, Grimli wrote that one. In the myth, he's not the he-man masters of the universe fellow fighting alongside Xena, warrior princess. On the TV show, if I recall, he used fire, but I don't recall if Kevin Sorbo actually used poison.
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells?
DM: Awesome. Yes.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 4:24PM
#42
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2012
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"Not good" and "evil" are not synonyms.
In our morally ambiguous age, there are those who would lead you to believe that there is no distinction between not being alive and being dead.
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells?
DM: Awesome. Yes.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 4:29PM
#43
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As I stated Hercules used posion from the Hydra and he was considered by most to be heroic.
Hercules was considered to be somewhat of a jerk in the legends, prone to fits of rage in which he killed people, including the cold blooded murder of his music teacher as a youth as well as throwing some people who angered him off his roof during a party. His enemy Hera used this tendency to get him into a blind rage in which he murdered his wife and children. His 12 tasks were penence for his brutal murder of his own family.
Technically I wrote that comment.
Depending on the myth is also was either accepted by the Gods or was in horrible agony. It depends on which version of the myth you like.
Was Hercules a hero? Well heroes in most Greek myths weren't really all that nice. But they were considered heroes because they killed the monsters that plagued mankind.
Hercules, Perseus, Achilles all did things that we as a society now consider good.
That in esssence is the issue with these arguments. Society changes, so we change and our opinions of the morality of those actions change.
Just look at the heroes of some TV shows and films of the last 60 years. The characters actions, morality and codes they follow are drastically different.
The OP asked for an argument to put forth his DM for his Paladin using poison. I am simply trying to give him one.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 4:30PM
#44
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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Good vs. evil is not logically equivalent to alive vs. dead.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 6:28PM
#45
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Date Joined:
Sep 24, 2011
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Hmm...I will try magical alternatives. Perhaps sleeping potions to apply to weapons and serve as poisons. It's not a poison--it's a potion (it's all in the name with him).
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 6:46PM
#46
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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Hmm...I will try magical alternatives. Perhaps sleeping potions to apply to weapons and serve as poisons. It's not a poison--it's a potion (it's all in the name with him).
Kinda wish I was collecting anecdotal issues with alignment mechanics... Kinda.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out hereSpoiler:
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 7:58PM
#47
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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"Not good" and "evil" are not synonyms.
In our morally ambiguous age, there are those who would lead you to believe that there is no distinction between not being alive and being dead.
Except alive or dead is a binary stat. You're either alive or dead, no in between(until you factor in zombies and undead, but sicne you mentioned our age, I assume you mean real life stuff).
Good and evil, however, is a big grey area. Not even close to being a good comparison.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 10, 2013 - 8:29PM
#48
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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"Not good" and "evil" are not synonyms.
In our morally ambiguous age, there are those who would lead you to believe that there is no distinction between not being alive and being dead.
Except alive or dead is a binary stat. You're either alive or dead, no in between(until you factor in zombies and undead, but sicne you mentioned our age, I assume you mean real life stuff).
Good and evil, however, is a big grey area. Not even close to being a good comparison.
It kindof is actually, except not in the way he meant it.
Think of the abortion debate and the debate for assisted passing of people who are permanently in a coma with little to no brain activity.
The definition of "Life" is actually a hotly debated topic if it comes in the non-cookiecutter form (which hopefully your campaign is complex enough to touch on from time to time). There are those who believe adamantly that masturbation leads to seed being spilled which is loss of life. There are those who believe life begins at conception. There are those who factor in some number between conception and birth. There are those who believe life starts at birth.
The end can get just as murky. There are those who believe that assisted passing is something that is horrid and equivalent to murder, others would say in some of those cases the people weren't really "alive". Like the guy who is brain-dead, or someone who has been "locked in" for years and years at a time. If the person is alive only because his bloods being pumped out and cleaned and fed back in, his food is being pushed in through tubes, he shows no signs of cognition or brain function and is wearing an iron lung at all times are they really alive? Some would say yes, others no.
And that only covers Life in the form of "alive" from our perspective talking about society. What about getting more scientific with it. Are stim cells considered "alive" by the same definition as people? How many organs do we have to grow before it becomes a person? Is a liver and a set of lungs that work less of a person than a body without functioning organs? What about viruses?
The point is that things get muddled really quickly after any sort of complexity gets added into the system. If you don't limit yourself to the obvious questions you can't always rely on the obvious answers to steer you where you want to go.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out hereSpoiler:
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 4:36AM
#49
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Date Joined:
Dec 20, 2012
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I'm pretty sure you could easily justify a good guy who wants the bad guys to suffer (through poisoning) is still chaotic good.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 6:15AM
#50
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'Dishonorable' and 'evil' are not synonyms.
This.
DM: Describe your character.
Player: He's a cheating, corrupt, crafty, crooked, deceitful, deceiving, devious, dishonest, double-faced, felonious, fraudulent, hypocritical, immoral, insincere, prevaricating, traitorous, treacherous, turncoat, underhanded, unscrupulous, untrustworthy dishonorable, toxic, poison-using chap. A saint, really.
First there are three allignements, not two, but Three.
Good, NEUTRAL and Evil.
As for Dishonorable, deceitful, even immoral. There are three Allignments on the second path Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic.
A Neutral person "have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships."
So they can be All the things on your list, and so long as they have moral compunctions against things like killing the innocent (murder etc) then they are not evil. And since they are committed to others by personal relationships, they in fact can be Saints (to their close friends and family, or their kinsmen) while being an absolutely horrible person to everyone else.
Not-Good does not mean Evil, it means the person simple lacks the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. That means they can be nice people, generous, kind, caring, loving, etc etc, but simply unwilling to heroically run into a burning building to save someone at the cost of their own life.
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