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Jan 6, 2013 -- 8:26PM, MechaPilot wrote:

Jan 6, 2013 -- 8:22PM, ElementTwo wrote:

I always felt that the schools were just there to organize the spells into general effect. It's not as if every wizard has banned schools.

That's very true.  However, I've heard the suggestion before that wizards should be forced to choose a number of schools (the number has varied often in the suggestion) that they can cast from.  And then they could either spend resources to expand this number of schools, or that they'll have to cast spells outside of these schools at one or two spell levels higher.

Birthright had something like this. They got 1 school to lvl 9 and level 3 everything esle

Jan 6, 2013 -- 8:28PM, SleepsInTraffic wrote:

Jan 6, 2013 -- 8:06PM, ElementTwo wrote:

So... I'd suggest that we just stop arguing with arderkrag. It's obvious that we aren't going to change his opinions. He's repeatedly asserted that all of you are wrong and failed to adequately support those assertions. Back on topic: I don't really know if the casting and melee classes can be balanced as long as we have pure vancian casting. It ends up with casters either being nigh useless or pushing too many other characters out of their roles. On that note I'd like to ask this question: What is the role of a caster? How can you fit a caster into a party without trivializing other party members? Perhaps we should try to set up class abilities and spells so that casters could emulate any class to some degree with their magic, but not outstrip them at their specialty.

simpler than that...

You ask the question:, "how can you fit a caster into a party without trivializing other party members?"

The answer is simply...I don't make a caster that trivializes other party members.  It doesn't matter if I can make a character with the wizard class that can in fact perform as well in a sphere as someone else...so long as I don't do that to other people.  If I know jimmy wants to make a rogue that is a locksmith as part of his character concept I don't take the knock spell.  I may have it in my spellbook (jimmy may die or we may get seperated), but I don't ever prep it because we have jimmy.  Out of character I do it because I'm not a dick.  In character I don't do it because hey jimmy's character will cover that need I can fill in something else the party doesn't already have covered.  If I know someone is already playing a face man I'm not going to design my wizard to act like a face man with his spells.  Someone else has expressed an intrest in that type of character.  

Now inversly if I built a wizard.  With the express reasoning of being a face man with it.  Why is it okay for someone to come along and build a rogue that is a face man?  Why is the guy playing the wizard instantly the A-Hole?  Maybe the guy that built the face man rogue is overshadowing me the guy that wanted to play the magical face man.  Like I have always said...many of these problems can be cleared up with a session 0 type of deal where everyone agrees upon who is doing what in the party.  building the party should be a group event.  make sure of which characters already know each other and make sure of who wants to play what.

That is very commendable of you, but it has been shown again and again that spellcasters (at least in 3.5. I have no experience with 4e) can easily break the game if the DM isn't more knowledgable than the player. And here's the thing: some players are dicks. They will try to do this. And I'll ask you to excuse me, but I will not accept "then don't let them play", or "then don't play a wizard" as a solution. We have a chance to let our voices be heard and cut some of the cheese out of the game, so I intend to take it.

I have another question: Assuming both classes are optimized correctly, what classes does the wizard outstrip at what is supposed to be their specialty?

The fighter role should be more evident.
What a fighter should have is fighting techniques adapted to a fantasy world.

• There are many ways to end fighting blinded (spell effect, medusa), so every fighters should be trained to fight with limited perceptions.
• The enemies come in many forms, so fighters should be trained in estimating weaknesses, even against unfamiliar opponents, without care about culture, religion or ecology of the target (as the knowledge skill is actually the only way to simulate this).
• Flight or  teleportation require a different approach, so fighters should have training in anticipating this kind of tactical movements and ways to handle distance. All fighters should be quickly as effective at range as in melee (now they are effective, but lack built-in quick weapon swapping).
• Magic is a common threat that every fighter should be trained to resist. Any army uses spellcasters, so any fighters should be ready to oppose it.

If fighter is all about fighting, then he should be trained in keeping fighting effectively against anyone or anything.

Jan 7, 2013 -- 5:59AM, Monsieur_Moustache wrote:

The fighter role should be more evident.
What a fighter should have is fighting techniques adapted to a fantasy world.

• There are many ways to end fighting blinded (spell effect, medusa), so every fighters should be trained to fight with limited perceptions.
• The enemies come in many forms, so fighters should be trained in estimating weaknesses, even against unfamiliar opponents, without care about culture, religion or ecology of the target (as the knowledge skill is actually the only way to simulate this).
• Flight or  teleportation require a different approach, so fighters should have training in anticipating this kind of tactical movements and ways to handle distance. All fighters should be quickly as effective at range as in melee (now they are effective, but lack built-in quick weapon swapping).
• Magic is a common threat that every fighter should be trained to resist. Any army uses spellcasters, so any fighters should be ready to oppose it.

If fighter is all about fighting, then he should be trained in keeping fighting effectively against anyone or anything.

Creatures you fight are also frequently huge so being able to do fantasy style judo and use there strength against them is part of that one.

Note real life knight tighting style included martial take-downs so they could increase the penetration against heavy armored adversaries (like each other)