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Jan 5, 2013 -- 9:55AM, souldoubt wrote:

Jan 4, 2013 -- 6:27PM, Karnos wrote:

*snip*

1) Stacking Str and Dex mod for attack: You're forgetting that ability scores scale with level.  And given Bounded Accuracy, even that extra +2 at 1st level is probably overpowered.

2) Breaking AC scaling is okay because it was done before?  Yeah, and it didn't work then, either.  Just look at your own examples of the DM having to pull shenanigans with non-AC attacks just to threaten that one guy with broken AC.  Having the highest possible AC should make a character hard to hit, not impossible to hit.  Having a character that's impossible to hit via traditional means not only breaks balance and makes the DM's job frustrating, it breaks verisimilitude.  Furthermore, Dex is already a super-stat; making it more valuable is a bad idea.

I think you're missing part of my point.  I actually agree that Str+Dex should be a valid build, and that there should be some way to support a combination of those two stats.  But the ways that you're suggesting are by and large not the way that this should be done.  Because what I do disagree with is the idea that Str+Dex should always the better option, which is what you're proposing, as that's no better than having only Str or only Dex be the best option.

Ability scores scale by level?  I know this was the case in 4th edition, but I don't think that is true in Next, unless I missed a footnote.  Can you clairify?

1-  If you don't care about both stats, you will just go for the highest possible primary stat.  Not really a big difference between 16 str and 14 dex giving a combined +5 compared to a 20 dex giving a +5.  If the +2 is overpowered, the game is already broken because a 20 stat at level 1 gives you an effective +2 over the average.  I don't buy it.

2- It isn't breaking anything.  It worked fine in 2ed, and will work fine in the future.  It's funny how I explain to you how it worked fine and you twist my words around to imply it was broken.

Then you go on assuming that everyone everywhere will always stack strength and dexterity every time.  You are still ignoring the need for HP, something that many players in my games care about, and the fact that Constitution directly influences hp.  Str/Dex being absolute best combo of stats only fits your argument because you seem to hold HP as a worthless resource, which isn't true.

Everything should be a tradeoff.  With the current rules in the playtest packet, it's not so much.  For a rogue or fighter, you raise primary stat of dex or strength, then you raise con, and you don't really care about the other 4 stats.  I don't get how you can complain that my change would make str/dex the only best option.  You can't get those stat points from nothing, you are losing con to raise your strength or dex, so it's a trade-off.

Another idea that occurred to me was giving some kind of synergistic benefit to Str+Dex for medium armor, such as a eliminating Disadvantage, or even just a +1 bonus to AC for 15 or higher Str.  (For heavy armor, high Str should probably elminate speed penalty.) 

I'm a bit confused by this bit.  You are suggesting a str/dex fighter could wear medium armor, and get a +1 AC bonus.  Whats the point?  So they can get AC 18 in medium armor, after raising dex, when the smarter fighters can just leave dex alone, raise con, gain more hp, and STILL run around with AC 18 because that is what heavy armor grants by default.

Jan 7, 2013 -- 10:25AM, MacLar wrote:

Jan 3, 2013 -- 3:46PM, souldoubt wrote:

Jan 3, 2013 -- 3:43PM, MacLar wrote:

Jan 3, 2013 -- 3:17PM, Dwarfslayer wrote:

I don't see any problem with it. Being in heavy armor slows you down. You just can't do the same kind of ninja dodges you could in leather armor when you're in full plate.

Instead of dex adding to ac up to a limit, dex and armor ac could jsut be separate. If you have an 18 dex, your ac is 14 regardless of armor, until you wear armor thats good enough it gives you a 15  ac or better. when your dex is drained or you cant dodge because youre glued to the floor or paralyzed or suprised then you can use your armor ac even if its worst than your dex ac. when attacked by something that goes right through armor like a wraith's touch you use your dex ac even if its lower than your armor ac.

You just cursed every light armor wearer to horrid AC for eternity.

Maybe you're okay with that, but I'm not.

would help balance magic-users and druids though, wouldnt it?

Why not just "better of the two"?
Calulate AC from dex, and AC from gear - use either as appropriate.

Jan 7, 2013 -- 10:34AM, Qmark wrote:

Jan 7, 2013 -- 10:25AM, MacLar wrote:

Jan 3, 2013 -- 3:46PM, souldoubt wrote:

You just cursed every light armor wearer to horrid AC for eternity.

would help balance magic-users and druids though, wouldnt it?

Why not just "better of the two"?
Calulate AC from dex, and AC from gear - use either as appropriate.

You'd probably end up with some attacks that target one or the other, like 'Touch AC' in 3e or REF defense in 4e.  

It wouldn't do much to balance casters or ranged characters (the ones who typically have lighter armor), just further clarify their traditional avoidance of melee - well and get them killed now and then.  Death is a rather extreme balancing mechanism.  

Still, in 5e's 'bounded accuracy' paradigm, "Better of the Two" or "best of the bunch" bonuses would work better than stacking bonuses.

Actually, in the mechanical spirit of Advantage/Disadvantage, you could even have attackers roll two attacks: one vs Armor AC, one vs DEX AC, with both needing to hit (ie, and 'attack roll' and an 'armor penetration' check).  

Jan 3, 2013 -- 2:47PM, hexxer wrote:

My only thought behind this is PCs are heroes. These limitations on thier ability scores (especially) DEX is detremental.

The definition of 'hero' varies from group to group. It's not detrimental at all to us because it's rational and simulationist, which we require in order to have fun with D&D.

If you don't like it, however, you should be free to discard it.