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5 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 5:41AM
#31
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I may just allow the full Dex bonus, as long as the Str bonus is equal to or greater than the Dex bonus.
That is a nice idea.
One could have high AC with that, but only if he invests heavily in both Str and Dex, and add to it a heavy armor.
So tt's a good payoff for investing high in 2 Abilities, which inevitably will lead to other Abilities being lower.
However, I doubt something like that would be added to the official core rules.
For that you would need to have players comparing things in their sheets and the book's tables/rules (even though in this case it would be something very simple)... and I get the feeling that WotC always tries to push for a more "in the face" rule: you look at the table, see the number you should use, and add it to your character sheet.
They even took out the +5, +7, etc "Armor Bonus" from the armor table and returned to the old AD&D fixed armor values: ex, Plate gives you AC18, and so on.
Which is basically the same as saying Plate gives you +8 armor bonus, but more in your face.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 6:57AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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The Dex supremacy needs to come to an end. It is already the "reflex save" ability score, it doesn't need to affect another defense as well.
Each armor category needs a solid reason to be viable, and should be independant of ability scores. Having a high dex while preferring heavy armor should not be penalized to the extent that it is. I agree that most Str- and Dex-based skills should be penalized in heavy armor, but I would rather not see the "baseline AC" include Dex as part of the formula for the lighter armors. Keep the AC difference between the categories smaller, with non-AC benefits and/or penalties for each category.
For example:
No Armor - Baseline
Light Armor - AC bonus of +3
Medium Armor - AC bonus of +4. Disavantage on Dex-based skill checks.
Heavy Armor - AC bonus of +5. Disavantage on Str- and Dex-based skill checks. Advantage on saves vs physical attacks.
Now, throw in a class AC bonus to get the numbers in line with the target average hit %.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 7:03AM
#33
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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I would put full DEX mod for light armours, and as heavy armour requires strength and endurance for efficiency I would put LOWEST of STR, DEX and CON bonuses to AC, that way you can use your super quickness in heavy armor but it needs to be backed up with strength and endurance.
And by the way delete medium armor category.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 7:11AM
#34
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Nowadays I am toying with the idea of Strength giving bonus to melee and ranged damage only, while Dexterity giving bonus to attack rolls and AC. Light armor should use the Dex modifier and Heavy armor should use the Str modifier. Medium armor users shall choose the better modifier of the two abilities.
As a result, with high strength you will be able to deal bigger damage and because you are stronger, you can wear heavier armor, thus have better physical protection, but as a tradeoff you cannot be that much accurate. If you have high dexterity, then you prefer light armor to have a good AC and your to-hit accuracy is better because of your hand-eye coordination and agility, although you deal smaller damage compared to strong guys.
Initiative modifier should be in the Wisdom/Intelligence camp, because IMO it is more related to alertness and wits than being agile.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 7:38AM
#35
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I don't like the modern stat system too much. I started playing in 2nd edition, and back then nearly ever stat had some use. Yeah, there were always jokes about charisma being worthless and it was the go-to dump stat, but otherwise the rest of the stats were all somewhat nice to have.
Since then, it looks like Charisma was fixed in some editions but other stats were broken. Specifically, the current Dexterity/Strength relationship is very nonsensical from my point of view. As far as game mechanics are concerned, any fighting character, whether rogue or warrior or cleric or monk, will want to maximize either strength or dexterity and then minimize or use as a dump stat the other. This makes no sense to me from a realism standpoint. In any movie or story that involves melee combat, the best heroes are both strong AND agile. You never hear about the heroic champion who has the speed and reactions of a tiger but the strength of a newborn baby, because it just doesn't make sense in the real world.
Currently, if you are dex based you don't care about strength at all. And if you are strength based, you simply wear heavy armor and don't care about dex at all. This is all wrong. The two stats should be closely linked, anyone who wants to hit well should really want both.
IMO, here is how it should work.
Damage: full strength bonus, even for finese and ranged weapons (you pull back harder on a bowstring & the arrow will hit harder)
Hit chance: full strength bonus + full dex bonus, stacks. brute strength helps push through an opponents feeble parry attempts, while dexterity helps you feint and attack where there is no defense.
AC: based on dex, not limited by armor (yes, heavy armor slows you down, but I like to think of it as a dex penalty that is already baked into the armor, for example a character of 10 dex in full plate will move slower, as if he has 6 dex. but a character with 16 dex in full plate will only be slowed to the equivilent of 12 dex, and will still have a 6 dex advantage over the baseline. this penalty is already baked into the armor class value of the armor, so it can be ignored, and full dex armor class bonus can be applied)
This is just based on my philosphy, which is that every stat should have a value for every character, no matter what class or build. Sure, a wizard might care less about strength, but there might come a time when he has no spells left and a bit of bonus damage would be handy, strength could still offer a nminor bonus. A minor bonus such as this is at least better than the current situation, where a high dex nullifies any and all possible benefits of strength in combat.
Just going to touch on other stats, since this thread is focused on dex/str, but I like the idea of wis int and cha offering saving throw bonuses to various effects. Int offering bonus feats would make it valuable for everyone, and wisdom could give a % xp bonus to make it more useful. Charisma is a tough one to make desirable for all characters, but it could modify merchant prices, each +1 is 10% discount from regular price, and 10% increase in value for items sold. I don't know.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 9:27AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2010
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IMO, here is how it should work.
Damage: full strength bonus, even for finese and ranged weapons (you pull back harder on a bowstring & the arrow will hit harder)
Sounds good, but a crossbow should not gain damage from strength.
Hit chance: full strength bonus + full dex bonus, stacks. brute strength helps push through an opponents feeble parry attempts, while dexterity helps you feint and attack where there is no defense.
Yes, but should you be able to do both at the same time? Even assuming you can, you're going to favor one or the other depending on what kind of weapon you're using (finesse vs. non-finesse).
Regardless, adding both your Dex and Str mods to attack rolls completely breaks attack bonus scaling and Bounded Accuracy. I agree that there should be more incentive to boost both Dex and Str (without penalizing you for not doing it!), but stacking bonuses on attack rolls is not the way to do it.
AC: based on dex, not limited by armor (yes, heavy armor slows you down, but I like to think of it as a dex penalty that is already baked into the armor, for example a character of 10 dex in full plate will move slower, as if he has 6 dex. but a character with 16 dex in full plate will only be slowed to the equivilent of 12 dex, and will still have a 6 dex advantage over the baseline. this penalty is already baked into the armor class value of the armor, so it can be ignored, and full dex armor class bonus can be applied)
Again, allowing full Dex to heavy armor breaks AC scaling and Bounded Accuracy.
Just going to touch on other stats, since this thread is focused on dex/str, but I like the idea of wis int and cha offering saving throw bonuses to various effects. Int offering bonus feats would make it valuable for everyone, and wisdom could give a % xp bonus to make it more useful. Charisma is a tough one to make desirable for all characters, but it could modify merchant prices, each +1 is 10% discount from regular price, and 10% increase in value for items sold. I don't know.
Bonus feats from Int would likely be way overpowered; reinstituting bonus languages or -- more doubtful -- skill training might work.
Price adjustments for high Cha seems like a nice minor benefit, though I doubt WotC will institute something that requires people to do percentile math. An alternate system would have to be worked out for price reduction.
I want "punch magic in the face" to be a maneuver
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5 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 9:46AM
#37
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The strength/dex relationship is a clear issue in this packet. The only incentive to have both is a small bonus to skills based on these abilities. But, I don't think this is fixed by simply creating an incentive to have both, because there are only so many stats to go around. By needing physical stats the martial classes are at a disadvantage in ability score distribution. No one wants to play a dumb and ugly character, but if both dex and strength are needed to have an optimized fighter, it makes playing a charismatic fighter, or an intelligent tactical fighter, almost impossible (where you have to give up a lot of mechanical advantage to do it).
Maybe there's no answer here, other than telling people that if they want to be able to play Aragorn, they have to roll 5d.6 and ditch the lowest two, and re-roll ones, for ability scores.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 9:51AM
#38
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Date Joined:
May 27, 2012
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This is just based on my philosophy, which is that every stat should have a value for every character, no matter what class or build.
I entirely agree with your philosophy, but I'm not certain that yours is the best way to implement that idea. Unfortunately, due to the constraints on keeping the system simple, it's probably a bad idea to link more than one ability score to each stat.
There's no reason you can't use Strength as the universal physical damage stat, though. Even crossbows can be built to require more Strength to ready. Even firearms can be built with enough kickback that you would need a certain minimum Strength to fire accurately.
Dexterity makes sense for the universal dodge stat, and we could also use that for accuracy without too much of a disconnect (as long as you have sufficient Strength to use the weapon in the first place).
Con is already HP, so let's just leave that there.
Wisdom = Perception means that we could tie that into ranged attack accuracy and/or crit rates and/or Initiative.
The metagame is not the game.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 9:56AM
#39
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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My only thought behind this is PCs are heroes. These limitations on thier ability scores (especially) DEX is detremental.
Heroes are not unlimited.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 4:07PM
#40
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My only thought behind this is PCs are heroes.
I dont know why but that phrase always makes me laugh.
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