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I recently got Persistant Spell (metamagic) feat and I want to know all the best enchancement spells I can use for this. I know of Cat's grace, Bull's & Bear's Strength, Shield of Faith, Entropic Shield, Sanctuary, and Resist / Prevent Energy.

Are there any others spell level 4 and under that would be effective for my party? We do everything from fight to gamble to negotiate to steal to even think about opening a business..... Pretty much everything. All ideas would be appriciated.

Thank you

I'll note that "touch" ranges spells actually don't fall into the "personal or fixed range" categories that are needed to use Persistent Spell on.  You may want to say that "touch" is "fixed range" but it really is not.

Now if you are looking for spells of 4th-level or lower to Persist you want to look at Divine Power.  It is one the prime targets for Persistent Spell and a big reason they say clerics can out fight warrior types and why they say your BAB doesn't matter when you are a cleric.  Freedom of Movement has a range of Personal OR touch so you can maybe squeek that one in with Persistent spell.

If you want to melee divine power is a solid spell, or girallion arms, I wouldn't bother much with the +4 stat ones since its an enchancement bonus, lesser form of the deity mifht not be bad either

And if you have Divine Metamagic (Persist), there's always Righteous Might (5th) and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (3rd, iirc).

There is a way to make a touch spell a fixed-range effect, but it's really awkward (involving Ocular Spell - don't ask). You're better off looking at any Personal-range buff; WotC seems to think that any of those are prime locations for "make me a tiny god" effects. They aren't all that good, but you'll be hard-pressed to find persistent-compatible spells that are worth using that aren't personal.

As Draco mentioned, Persistent Spell is more or less a joke on its own, but with the Divine Metamagic feat (basically, pick one metamagic feat, and you can activate it on the fly for 1+its slot modifier in turn attempts), it becomes much more useful. For starters, it lets you persist any spell you can cast, even if you don't have a slot six levels higher available. (i.e. you're 7th level? Fine, persist a 4th!).

The biggest candidates from Core offensively are probably Divine Power (basically the definitive persistent buff) and Righteous Might (5th level, but it's hard to be complete without mentioning it). Any spell with absolute language (i.e. Freedom of Movement) is also worth looking into.

Outside of core, I've seen some people persist Mass Lesser Vigor (yes, it's a fixed-range effect), but this is only worth doing if you have a lot of turn attempts to spend (read: buy lots of Nightsticks, although there's a very good argument that they don't stack).

I'm really not as familiar with divine magic as I should be, so I can't do the rest from memory and I'm away from my books.

Jan 3, 2013 -- 9:32AM, StevenO wrote:

I'll note that "touch" ranges spells actually don't fall into the "personal or fixed range" categories that are needed to use Persistent Spell on.

Until you bring Ocular into the mix.

More on point, beyond things like Holy Transformation, or other simple bonuses, the only thing that actually really matters is Divine Power. Everything else is just for convinience.

Jan 3, 2013 -- 10:49AM, Cyclone_Joker wrote:

Jan 3, 2013 -- 9:32AM, StevenO wrote:

I'll note that "touch" ranges spells actually don't fall into the "personal or fixed range" categories that are needed to use Persistent Spell on.

Until you bring Ocular into the mix.

More on point, beyond things like Holy Transformation, or other simple bonuses, the only thing that actually really matters is Divine Power. Everything else is just for convinience.

And where is Ocular located?  Is it something that someone can find just using the core books?  Tempest just mentioned it moments before you did but doesn't seem to think it is worth the effort needed.

Jan 3, 2013 -- 11:09AM, StevenO wrote:

And where is Ocular located?  Is it something that someone can find just using the core books?  Tempest just mentioned it moments before you did but doesn't seem to think it is worth the effort needed.

Lords of Madness.

For more information on the use and abuse of Ocular Spell, I recommend a look at the infamous Twice-Betrayer.

Ocular is an inherently good Metamagic. While a bit odd, it can let you do all sorts of fun things with spells, and generally wreck the action economy even further. 

I didn't say it wasn't worth it, I said not to ask - it's a good feat, but an easy enabler for cheese, a thematic mismatch (as it's themed after beholders), and, for a player unfamiliar with the basics of cleric buffing, probably a needless complication for now. It's still absolutely critical if you want every bit of power you can get out of Persistent Spell; CJ's linked to the best example of that.

Sorry Tempest, I didn't mean to be too dismissive.  Of course your declining to go further because of the cheese it can introduce is exactly the reason that CJ would be bringing it up so readily.

So it's in Lords of Madness.  No wonder I missed it.  Not only is it not in a core rulebook it isn't even in the next "tier" of books that most people will use by which I mean the Complete X series.  No, it's in a creature type book that probably covers the least popular of the various type specific books.  No wonder I'm blind to it.

Jan 3, 2013 -- 11:57AM, StevenO wrote:

Sorry Tempest, I didn't mean to be too dismissive.  Of course your declining to go further because of the cheese it can introduce is exactly the reason that CJ would be bringing it up so readily.

So it's in Lords of Madness.  No wonder I missed it.  Not only is it not in a core rulebook it isn't even in the next "tier" of books that most people will use by which I mean the Complete X series.  No, it's in a creature type book that probably covers the least popular of the various type specific books.  No wonder I'm blind to it.

I wouldn't be snarky; EDIT: That came out wrong, I meant to say don't worry about it, it's understandable.

Lords of Madness is actually a surprisingly good book. I enjoyed reading it a lot more than any of the other creature books, mostly because the aberrations are so unusual compared to dragons or undead - both of which have a lot of narrative momentum from other sources. I mean, there's many legends of dragons, and untold zombie or vampire books, but the only real parallels to most of the aberrations are Lovecraftian horror (of which I am a lifelong fan, I will admit - and we're not talking about the Far Realm here. Aboleths would fit right in among the mi-go or Deep Ones), and a few of WotC's own creatures have their own lore (beholders and illithids, for instance; the illithid are more interesting here, and for once not just because of their reproduction.).

And mechanically, the book has a couple joyous elements in it too, several of which I wouldn't consider overpowering relative to the Complete series. The strongest non-metamagic feat is probably Mindsight (requires telepathy and lets you sense thinking creatures within your telepathy range; PCs tend to use this with a one-level dip in mindbender), with special mention to Darkstalker (allows Hide to work against most non-standard senses, such as Tremorsense, Scent, and Blindsight). It even has some passable psionic support. There's a lot of chaff in it, just like in almost every book, but a surprising amount of it can find use - or inspire its own use.

Tempest, hopefully you figured it out but the tone of second paragraph wasn't intended for you.  It's just a reflection of some of the other comments my post have gotten.

Jan 3, 2013 -- 11:57AM, StevenO wrote:

Sorry Tempest, I didn't mean to be too dismissive.  Of course your declining to go further because of the cheese it can introduce is exactly the reason that CJ would be bringing it up so readily.

So it's in Lords of Madness.  No wonder I missed it.  Not only is it not in a core rulebook it isn't even in the next "tier" of books that most people will use by which I mean the Complete X series.  No, it's in a creature type book that probably covers the least popular of the various type specific books.  No wonder I'm blind to it.

Whoa, what's with the bitterness? Nobody was attacking you, bro. Chill.

I honestly recommend the book. Seriously, it's well-balanced, well-written, useful, fun, has some truly great fluff, and is easily one of the best 3.5 books ever printed

Also page 98 has one of the best psionic gish (my personal fav gish) presteige classes since its full bab and 5/6 casting, good old sanctified mind and it eventually gets some (not great by any means) power resistance

I wouldn't say "one of the best" only because it's kind of niche (by definition) and won't see as wide a use as, say, the Spell Compendium; combined with it being out of print this makes it a bit less desirable than the top-tier "best of the best" shortlist titles. But in terms of quality independent of scope/availability, yes, it's certainly up there. Well-written fluff, a decent crunch:fluff ratio, high-quality crunch without too much chaff, relatively few exploitables (...I think all of its mechanical exploits needed someone like LordofProcrastination to develop!), and good production values / artwork throughout.

The two dirty tricks above were both "theoretical optimization" stunts - trying to push the system to its limits. The first involves combining Ocular Spell and Reach Spell to make any spell work with Persistent Spell; Ocular Spell on its own is fine (it basically converts almost any spell into a beholder-style eye ray; it's more problematic in that it lets you fire off two spells at once, but this is nothing new thanks to Spell Sequencers and related effects.). The second typically involves Polymorph Any Object, which is one of those problematic core spells anyway (and one that WotC tried to sweep under the rug with their Polymorph "ban"); it's basically a way of getting a common PC into a very powerful class designed for beholders (read: totally not balanced for creatures without lots of HD/LA, regardless of what side of the DM screen you're on).

In terms of practical optimization - stuff likely to see use by PCs at a table allowing the book - the most problematic mechanics in the book are barely noticable. I forget offhand the spell options (translation: nothing too earth-shattering), but in terms of feats, there's Darkstalker (which, on a Hide-focused character, can pretty much only be foiled by a small list of spells or a very small list of specific feats) and Mindsight (which can lead less-experienced DMs into frustrating places, and might start an arms race - although very few PCs qualify unless they're also dipping Mindbender (Complete Arcane).) You can find more abusive stuff than this in just about any book beginning with the letter C.

And in terms of fluff? Well, I implied this earlier, but it actually got me interested in some of the lesser-known critters. Aboleths in particular, I think, but they did a good job making a couple others I hadn't even noticed interesting (the Grell and the Tsochar; they also address the Chuul in sidebars). The Lovecraft influence is strong here, and not just in the far-realms-and-tentacles sense, but more in the "barely comprehensible horror" sense. And there's even hat-tips to Spelljammer in there (particularly with the Neogi and Illithid), but these are subdued to the point where people who hate that setting won't really notice.

TL;DR: Good book.

Jan 3, 2013 -- 12:53PM, Cyclone_Joker wrote:

  

So it's in Lords of Madness.  No wonder I missed it.  Not only is it not in a core rulebook it isn't even in the next "tier" of books that most people will use by which I mean the Complete X series.  No, it's in a creature type book that probably covers the least popular of the various type specific books.  No wonder I'm blind to it.

Whoa, what's with the bitterness? Nobody was attacking you, bro. Chill.

I honestly recommend the book. Seriously, it's well-balanced, well-written, useful, fun, has some truly great fluff, and is easily one of the best 3.5 books ever printed

I guess I don't take it very well when someone quotes an entire post of mine and then says "Yeah, ignore this," without going into any detail about why.
 

 

Re: Lords of Madness, I definitely agree that it's worth checking out.  A lot of fun fluff, and some nice crunch.  It also has one of my favorite spells, Permeable Form.  (I don't know why - it's not a game-breaking spell or anything, I just really like it.)

I know that everyone considers Divine Power the quintessential DMM choice, but I've never really gotten it.  You have phenomenal cosmic power, and you're using it to... hit someone with a stick?  Chances are, if I wanted to hit someone with a stick, I'd play a warblade or a psychic warrior or something.  But if you DO think that hitting someone with a stick might be a fun thing for your avatar of the gods to do, I guess it's pretty good.

My favorite uses of DMM (Persist) are either for immunities and "NO" options (Freedom of Movement, Visage of the Deity, Veil of Undeath, etc.), or for major party buffs (Recitation, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, etc.).

Jan 3, 2013 -- 4:24PM, piggyknowles wrote:

I know that everyone considers Divine Power the quintessential DMM choice, but I've never really gotten it. You have phenomenal cosmic power, and you're using it to... hit someone with a stick? Chances are, if I wanted to hit someone with a stick, I'd play a warblade or a psychic warrior or something. But if you DO think that hitting someone with a stick might be a fun thing for your avatar of the gods to do, I guess it's pretty good.

Simply, it, along with maybe a few other nice buffs, makes Clerics unbelievably good at "hitting someone with a stick." I've seen a cleric get something like +50 strength, or thereabouts, and that, combined with full BAB and an attack bonus of "yes" means you can punch out Demon Princes and Archdevils single-handedly.

It's the go-to because it is, in sheer graceless functionality, simply the best buff.

My favorite uses of DMM (Persist) are either for immunities and "NO" options (Freedom of Movement, Visage of the Deity, Veil of Undeath, etc.), or for major party buffs (Recitation, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, etc.).

I've always been a fan of Stone Body, personally. As much as I agree with this from a matter of personal choice and style, it is just more effective for a cleric to be able to instasplat someone than it is for them to be immune to most of what they do. This is, of course, assuming a lack of resources prevent you from doing both.

I liked Righteous Wrath because it helps the rest of the party splat the enemy, too. But that was always my play style - protect the squishies by taking on the BBEG on my own. Or all the minions.  *shrug*
It's a matter of choice once you're Persisting, tbh.