Community

I'm having a little trouble understanding what constitutes a separate attack. I searched the online compendium and couldn't find any clarification.

My Battlemind has Mind Spike, which reads, "Trigger: An adjacent enemy marked by you deals damage to your ally with an attack that doesn't include you as a target. Effect: Target takes damage..."

So let's say an enemy has an attack power which lets him shift his speed and attack up to 3 enemies on the way. I'm one of the three attacked, so am I allowed to spike him?

Or let's say it has claw/claw/bite, which is listed as one power, and it attacks me with only one of the three and an ally with the other two.

Does anyone have anything else to add that might help my understanding?

Its all in the attack power type. Melee and Ranged attacks are seperate while Close and Area Burst and Blast are not.

A good rule of thumb is if it has 1 damage roll per target it seperate and if its a single damage roll for all targets its not.

In your exemples, these are probably melee attacks and thus seperate, which means one of the attacks not made against you could trigger Mind Spike.  

How is the "claw/claw/bite" written up in the monster statblock? I think they usually have separate "claw" and "bite" attack powers, and then there is an additional non-basic power that says something like "The jabberwock uses Claw twice and Bite once, each against separate targets", which is indeed three separate attacks/attack rolls/etc.

Its all in the attack power type. Melee and Ranged attacks are seperate while Close and Area Burst and Blast are not.

Makes sense. Thanks.

A good rule of thumb is if it has 1 damage roll per target it seperate and if its a single damage roll for all targets its not.

I'd have to see how the power is written up.

Dec 31, 2012 -- 3:15PM, waxwingslain wrote:

How is the "claw/claw/bite" written up in the monster statblock? I think they usually have separate "claw" and "bite" attack powers, and then there is an additional non-basic power that says something like "The jabberwock uses Claw twice and Bite once, each against separate targets", which is indeed three separate attacks/attack rolls/etc.

I don't know, but when I tried to use Mind Spike, my GM told me that since it was all one power, I couldn't spike it.

Dec 31, 2012 -- 4:47PM, floating_stump wrote:

Its all in the attack power type. Melee and Ranged attacks are seperate while Close and Area Burst and Blast are not.

Makes sense. Thanks.

A good rule of thumb is if it has 1 damage roll per target it seperate and if its a single damage roll for all targets its not.

I'd have to see how the power is written up.

Dec 31, 2012 -- 3:15PM, waxwingslain wrote:

How is the "claw/claw/bite" written up in the monster statblock? I think they usually have separate "claw" and "bite" attack powers, and then there is an additional non-basic power that says something like "The jabberwock uses Claw twice and Bite once, each against separate targets", which is indeed three separate attacks/attack rolls/etc.

I don't know, but when I tried to use Mind Spike, my GM told me that since it was all one power, I couldn't spike it.

I've seen DMs do different rulings on this.  It is because of how mark is worded:

Mark from Compendium:
 The creature takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include the marking creature as a target. 

Now here is the tricky bit that causes the confusion.  It doesn't say "power" it says attack.  An attack is defined as something with an attack roll.

So lets use Claw/Claw/Bite as an example.  The power "Dragon's Fury" which gives that dragon the ability to use all three of those moves together as one action is a power.  The  power makes three different attacks (each with their own attack roll).

Many DMs rule that since the power "included them in the attack" that means they can't punish it.  I believe the correct ruling is that it doesn't matter if the defender is included in the execution of the power, but rather the individual attacks.  So if he Clawed you and then clawed someone else you would get to use Mind Spike. 

Plaguescarred's RAW rule of thumb is the best one, but if you want a common-sense RAI reason to help you remember:

Powers like Mind Spike are intended to punish foes who get marked and then ignore the mark-er.

Mind Spike doesn't fire when the marked monster shoots a close blast 3 that happens to catch other characters as well as the mark-er. It's not the monster's fault other characters are caught in that blast. to the best of his ability, he did attack the mark-er.

Attack sequences like Dragon's Fury do trigger Mind Spike, because that dragon could and should have targeted the mark-er with all three. He chose to ignore the mark-er with one or more attacks so he gets punished:

 Dragon's Fury (standard, at-will)

The dragon makes two claw attacks. If the dragon hits a single target with both claws, it makes a bite attack against the same target.


However...there are monster attacks like Dragon's Fury that have the requirement to make the multiple attacks against DIFFERENT TARGETS. So the monster would be forced to spread his attacks out, but would still trigger a Mind Spike. Kinda sucks for the monster, and goes against the RAI rule of thumb I said earlier, but it seems accurate. Look at the zovvut:

 Lashing Chaos Chains  At-Will

Effect: The zovvut flies its fly speed and uses spiked chain against three different targets at any point during the move. Whenever the zovvut hits with one of these attacks, it deals 1d8 extra damage with any subsequent attacks made before the end of its turn. This extra damage is cumulative.


I think that would trigger the Mind Spike. Poor zovvut. 

 

Dec 31, 2012 -- 4:47PM, floating_stump wrote:

Its all in the attack power type. Melee and Ranged attacks are seperate while Close and Area Burst and Blast are not.

Makes sense. Thanks.

A good rule of thumb is if it has 1 damage roll per target it seperate and if its a single damage roll for all targets its not.

I'd have to see how the power is written up.

Dec 31, 2012 -- 3:15PM, waxwingslain wrote:

How is the "claw/claw/bite" written up in the monster statblock? I think they usually have separate "claw" and "bite" attack powers, and then there is an additional non-basic power that says something like "The jabberwock uses Claw twice and Bite once, each against separate targets", which is indeed three separate attacks/attack rolls/etc.

I don't know, but when I tried to use Mind Spike, my GM told me that since it was all one power, I couldn't spike it.

This is a VERY common house rule.  As long as it's applied fairly (i.e. a player can avoid a mob's mark punishment by hitting him with one of the 5 hits of Blade Cascade, say), then it works out OK.  It makes mark punishments somewhat less useful, but you can easily-enough build around that.

E: You're a Battlemind, you use Lightning Rush.

Dec 31, 2012 -- 5:30PM, waxwingslain wrote:

Attack sequences like Dragon's Fury do trigger Mind Spike, because that dragon could and should have targeted the mark-er with all three. He chose to ignore the mark-er with one or more attacks so he gets punished.

I think you said it pretty well. If a monster can make an attack roll against me, through use of a power, and chooses to roll against someone else, it gets punished. In the case of an area attack, it can't roll against me more than once.

Thanks, all!

A dragon breathing on two people and a fighter does not violate the mark.

A dragon biting someone who isn't the fighter does violate the mark, even if with the same action he may have clawed the fighter.