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Switch to Forum Live View Where are my Simple Caster Classes?
5 months ago  ::  Dec 30, 2012 - 3:11PM #1
Admiral-JCJF
Date Joined: Jul 3, 2009
Posts: 1,580
One issue which has come up again and again in the playtest discussions is the "simple vs complex" question.

Some D&D players want simple classes, either because they reject system mastery or for new players.  This is a totally reasonable request.

Some D&D players want complex classes, because they want to play mechanically as well as thematically and conceptually interesting characters.  This is ALSO a totally reasonable request.

So far we have seen a lot of effort go into making some of the previously simple classes (I'm looking at you Fighter and Rogue) more mechanically interesting and dynamic, so that they are acceptable to the people who want complexity without playing casters.

This is a good thing.

Though it IS important to note that there NEED to be mechanically simple options provided alongside the more mechanically complex within these classes so that they can still fulfil the desires of those who want to play a simple Fighter or simple Rogue.

...

However,

There has NOT yet been any progress towards the development of simple casters.

None of the proposed optional casting systems are simple and I suggest that no casting system based on the complex network of mini-systems known in D&D as a "spell list" will EVER be simple.

Some players want to play simple Arcane and Divine characters.

Some players want to play simple Casters.

Many young people entering the target age bracket to first pick up D&D have grown up with Harry Potter and will expect to see characters like these possible to build in D&D.  They currently are NOT.



So,

My question is simple:

Where is my simple Caster? 
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 30, 2012 - 4:02PM #2
The_Jester
  • Stampeding Hybrid
Date Joined: Nov 1, 2003
Posts: 3,504

Dec 30, 2012 -- 3:11PM, Admiral-JCJF wrote:

So,

My question is simple:

Where is my simple Caster? 



The same place as the complex melee classes, hybrid classes, pet classes: they haven't been released in the playtest yet. Expect the warlock to be a simpler caster class, and the sorcerer might potentially be a little easier to manage than a full wizard. And there is bound to be a gish class eventually that is a simpler caster but more complex fighter.

Simpler casters are not one of the archtypal four classes so they're just not what we're seeing at the moment. But I'm sure they're coming along with a melee class that has resources to manage and complexity. 

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5 months ago  ::  Dec 30, 2012 - 4:20PM #3
QuantumSunshine
Date Joined: Apr 25, 2012
Posts: 53
Posting to say that if it were release, I would definitely play a simple caster. Especially if it focused on primarily at-will casting (which is something I've always wanted).
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 30, 2012 - 4:24PM #4
Monsieur_Moustache
Date Joined: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 1,461
Warmage at-will spammers !
With enough of them, you can vitrify the planet ! 
"They are making it clear that when modern design and common sense come into conflict with tradition, tradition wins." - thecasualoblivion
"Vancian isn't broken, you just have to set your game to the wizard's clock!" - Oxybe
"In many ways, making a new edition of D&D is alot like trying to sell a car to the Amish." - Dwarfslayer
"Encounters are the heart of the AD&D game" - PHB AD&D 2nd edition.
"you shouldn't even bother trying to become like me." - Gary Gygax (Elfcrusher confirmed)

"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'"
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 30, 2012 - 4:27PM #5
Salla
Date Joined: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 23,524
Something resembling the 3e Warlock, without the lame flavor baked into the class, would be ideal, I think.  All the casting you would want.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 30, 2012 - 4:29PM #6
Garthanos
Date Joined: Jan 15, 2009
Posts: 17,637
Utility caster.. able to use intellect/wisdom for "most" every action he takes... including normallly physical ones, describe it magically

Improvisation in 4e: Improv. Attacks(by wrecan) - Fave 4E Improvisations

The Non-combatant Adventurer

Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness

Dynamic Reflavoring : The Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage
Creative Character Collection - Featuring:The Faerie Master - Snow White - Joxer - Ironman - Elric - Bloodwright

By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one

"You have to explicitly give non-casters permission to do awesome, where as with magic it is just assumed they can." -Garthanos

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5 months ago  ::  Dec 30, 2012 - 4:45PM #7
Monsieur_Moustache
Date Joined: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 1,461

Dec 30, 2012 -- 4:27PM, Salla wrote:

Something resembling the 3e Warlock, without the lame flavor baked into the class, would be ideal, I think.  All the casting you would want.


With or without the flavor I vote for it, too.
But if warts for fey lovers is all the flavor they can give, then no flavor would be absolutly better, lol.

"They are making it clear that when modern design and common sense come into conflict with tradition, tradition wins." - thecasualoblivion
"Vancian isn't broken, you just have to set your game to the wizard's clock!" - Oxybe
"In many ways, making a new edition of D&D is alot like trying to sell a car to the Amish." - Dwarfslayer
"Encounters are the heart of the AD&D game" - PHB AD&D 2nd edition.
"you shouldn't even bother trying to become like me." - Gary Gygax (Elfcrusher confirmed)

"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'"
- Gary Gygax
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 30, 2012 - 4:55PM #8
Garthanos
Date Joined: Jan 15, 2009
Posts: 17,637

Dec 30, 2012 -- 4:45PM, Monsieur_Moustache wrote:

Dec 30, 2012 -- 4:27PM, Salla wrote:

Something resembling the 3e Warlock, without the lame flavor baked into the class, would be ideal, I think.  All the casting you would want.


With or without the flavor I vote for it, too.
But if warts for fey lovers is all the flavor they can give, then no flavor would be absolutly better, lol.



heh I did conjure some, she steals your voice no singing or communicating with lesser beasts (two things highly valued by fey) but feels pitty and does leave you a telepathic mind speach in its stead. I kind of like it but there ought to be many bits of fun possible 

I like the price of power concept in general and the impact on the caster aspect of the sorceror... so count me amongst thoe finding the flavor pretty good. Even though as usual I will mangle it to my own ends not mattter what

Improvisation in 4e: Improv. Attacks(by wrecan) - Fave 4E Improvisations

The Non-combatant Adventurer

Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness

Dynamic Reflavoring : The Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage
Creative Character Collection - Featuring:The Faerie Master - Snow White - Joxer - Ironman - Elric - Bloodwright

By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one

"You have to explicitly give non-casters permission to do awesome, where as with magic it is just assumed they can." -Garthanos

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5 months ago  ::  Dec 30, 2012 - 9:13PM #9
xladyfayre
Date Joined: Dec 21, 2012
Posts: 709
Honestly when I think of a simple caster I think of the Charmed sisters from Charmed. Each sister has an active power and it grows. They usually gain another ability later but all have scrying, spell writing, and The Power of Three. I think if you strip it down it could translate as an inspiration for a simple caster class. I'm not sure you would call them witches though as most witches are thought of as hexers in the medieval times though. But basically you would choose an evolving power and it would gain more die as you level up. Some of their powers included molecular manipulation (Piper could combust her target causing her enemy to blow up and she could slow down molecules causing her target to freeze), seeing the future (Phoebe could see the future and in some cases the past), and telekinesis (Prue could move things with her mind and in an episode the future was seen and she eventually had it so powerful she could use it to blow up the house). I think powers such as those aside from seeing the future could be great evolving powers. They would be different than spells because they could be innate abilities and then you could give them a minor amount of spells and more cantrips than a wizard would have. The bulk of their power should come from the abilities they have which evolves. As you do it more it changes and gains more powerful abilities. Perhaps first you can freeze your enemy in place. Later you can target perhaps the feet or unfreeze another part. Maybe later you can use your power to blow the enemy up. This gives you options so you are not doing the same blast because you are unlocking features of your power. You only choose it once when you create your character. Of course it doesn't need to be molecular combustion as I was just drawing inspiration from my favorite series. 
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 30, 2012 - 10:31PM #10
Xeviat-DM
Date Joined: Jan 20, 2002
Posts: 1,586
A simple caster is really easy. I mean, really easy. Give them a pool of "arcane damage dice" and a list of maneuver-like spells. Tada, done. 
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