|
5 months ago ::
Dec 30, 2012 - 8:10AM
#1
|
|
|
With the New Year nearly upon us, I find myself looking into my future. And my crystal ball is showing me DMing 4e for a long time – it’s the kind of fantasy action-adventure game my group and I want to play, and I don’t see us jumping into another game anytime soon. But it does have flaws. I’m starting to mull over a real 4.5e reboot – an ironing-out of core issues that have never been addressed, and a refinement of everything that makes 4e awesome. I already have a lengthening to-do list for this project, from ‘make the math simple and elegant’ to ‘reverse engineer PC power guidelines’ to ‘do something about Second Wind.’ But I also want to hear from other 4e fans. What do you see as 4e’s core problems? What would you like to see changed?
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 30, 2012 - 8:35AM
#2
|
Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
|
Really I feel this question has been examined, at length, on these forums a couple of times before. And it seems like everyone and their mother is currently working on a version of 4.5. My advice is to search around a bit on these forums and dredge up some responses from threads on this topic and put the highlights up to discuss.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out hereSpoiler:
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 30, 2012 - 8:47AM
#3
|
Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
|
This is pretty much my plan for next year: keep playing 4e while improving the system where we thinks it needs to. Here are some areas I would consider, in no specific order.
- Speeding up combat - we are tackling this by increasing damage output with x2 crits and damage on a miss roll > 1 (PC only) equal to inherent bonus. Also we use average damage for monsters, to speed up the DM turns
- Streamlined math - I'd like to try taking off the 1/2 level increase from PC and have monsters get 1/3 levels. That should keep the math pretty much balanced on the LV1 baseline all across
- Gridless combat support - I've already made a thread on the subject here
- Streamlining Feats - figuring out some way to simplify selection without having to go through the sprawling mess that is the feats list
- Alternative to 'Daily' spells - We are experimenting with a recharge machanic, where evey round of combat (or dangerous situation) each PC rolls a d6 and gains a 'recharge token' on a 6 (or 5-6 when bloodied) to power up a 'daily' power; tokens can be kept for later too, but they reset to 1 after an extended rest
- Alternative cost for Rituals - We are experimenting with healing surges
- Gritty healing rules - Our houserule is that if a PC goes below 0 hp he loses a surge for the rest of the adventure (untli he can have a very long rest with medical care)
There are surely many more, but here is a first stab at it.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:32AM
#4
|
|
|
Some things I've been trying out with my players as of late...
- Turning Insight, Perception and Find Magic into something more akin to senses rather than skills.
- Skills have two ability score options instead of one. For instance, one can make an Endurance check with either their Con modifier or their Cha modifier.
- Removing the static ability score bonus from all races, allowing players to pick whichever two of three ability score bonuses from the race they want.
- Dividing attack types into Physical and Magical for ease of tracking bonuses.
- Experimenting with the option for an H type build of all classes, offering two primary ability score options in addition to two secondary ability score options instead of one on either end like the A and V type builds.
- Using the Inherent Bonus system as standard, and including a Tier bonus for attack rolls and NADs to eliminate the need for expertise feats and the Improved Defenses feat.
- Reworking some feats and powers to not be so useless.
- Encounter and Daily attack powers become Rechargeable in much the same way monsters often roll a d6 for it. Encounter powers can be rolled for recharge during an encounter, and continue to auto recharge during a short rest. Daily powers can only be rolled for recharge during a short rest, and only one daily recharge roll per short rest. Other recharge clauses may exist (when first bloodied, spend an action point, on a miss, when you have no more encounter/daily powers available, etc.)
- Opening up the multiclass system so feats are not needed to take powers from your multiclass. Bards can only choose from their first multiclass to prevent abuse.
So far a lot of these are looking pretty good. Still trying to figure out how to work level based magic items (thinking of having it track the inherent bonus), and some other issues have been coming up along the way, but we may be using a lot of these options as standard at my table in the future.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:30AM
#5
|
|
|
TO be honest while I love 4e it does have many problems in it that make me not wanna play or run it they include but are not limited to:
- Long Combat Encounters - Even with the fixed math of monster combat takes way too long. Sure the fights can be epic but I hate battling for 2 or 3 hours at a time.
- Magic - What can I say I hate magic in 4e with a passion. I think it was the worst thing 4e done. From rituals which were poorly executed, magic items which lacked luster, and crappy spells (seriously where did all the classics go?)
- Feats - The feats are just a big mess. Too many feats for the same thing, and some are clearly better. It's not like 3.5 where the clearly better feats are in a feat tree its just a matter of picking the feat now.
- Danger - 4e lacked any real combat danger in my opinion. I miss save or die effects. I like my PCs not to only fear things through RPing but through combat as well. Not to mention the traps are just complete garbage the orb of annihilation rarely (never) even kills.
- Math - While 4e has some pretty safe math number all that plus 10 and plus 1/2 level stuff is really stupid. It makes low level monsters, traps, and encounters unusable if you don't upgrade them. And lots of low level monster are the common staples in D&D.
- Health - The entire health system bugs me. I understand a second wind and martial healing. I just don't like it as much as magic healing
- Multi-Classing - MCing plain sucked in 4e. A feat anda few class options? I mean come on! Please its really not even worth taking. It is just a waste of a feat IMO you get the least favorable aspects of a class and can only do one thing associated with that class. MCing IMO is the worst thing in 4e. I love the 3.5 way much much more.
“The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear.” - H. P. Lovecraft Games I Play: - D&D 4e - D&D 3.5 - AD&D 2e - Pathfinder - Call of Cthulhu
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 30, 2012 - 3:22PM
#6
|
|
|
For instance, one can make an Endurance check with either their Con modifier or their Cha modifier.
"I'm too pretty to die"?
Really I feel this question has been examined, at length, on these forums a couple of times before. And it seems like everyone and their mother is currently working on a version of 4.5. My advice is to search around a bit on these forums and dredge up some responses from threads on this topic and put the highlights up to discuss.
Alright then, riddle me these two issues that I've never seen come up in one of these threads:
1. I'm fairly sure that characters are supposed to use Second Wind frequently. Every encounter, even. I distinctly remember an early 4e teaser article in which the author describes his PC getting hit, using SW and then jumping back into the fray. But as most of us know, using SW is largely pointless unless 1) you're a dwarf or 2) you're somehow incapacitated but still able to use a Standard. It's a standardized power for all PCs, which creates another option for players to remember during combat, and another +2 to track if they use it...but it sees infrequent use at best. I just don't think that SW is pulling its own weight; it should either be more useable, or simply removed. Any opinions?
2. Strikers deal extra damage, defenders mark, and leaders heal; but what's the controller's thing? Controllers as a whole are a grab-bag of class features, only some of which actually seem to control anything. I'd love to have a shtick, like "one enemy takes -2 to attacks" or something, that I can define all controllers with. Any ideas?
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 30, 2012 - 3:46PM
#7
|
|
|
1. Typically, Second Wind is used in conjunction with an action point, either to use the Second Wind, or use a standard action after using the Second Wind. I, personally, would make it a Move Action to use, rather than a Standard. Dwarves still get their bonus regarding it, though it's not quite so big of a bonus, and you can catch your breath and still do something elseful.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 30, 2012 - 4:51PM
#8
|
|
|
For instance, one can make an Endurance check with either their Con modifier or their Cha modifier.
"I'm too pretty to die"?
More of a strength of will kind of thing. That being said I'm sure one of my players will eventually pull this at the table XD
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 30, 2012 - 5:55PM
#9
|
Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
|
2. Strikers deal extra damage, defenders mark, and leaders heal; but what's the controller's thing? Controllers as a whole are a grab-bag of class features, only some of which actually seem to control anything. I'd love to have a shtick, like "one enemy takes -2 to attacks" or something, that I can define all controllers with. Any ideas?
Good point. The controller one has indeed been by far the most ill-defined and unaccomplished of the roles in 4e. The initial AoE /minions killers resume really didn't cut it.
Back to the question:
Short answer: kill the controller role.
Long answer: I like to think of control as the ability to inflict conditions and states which affect negatively enemies actions and tactics. Also, unlike other roles, I consider there is no room for a pure controller in 4e, but this is rather a secondary function within each class, which can be made more or less relevant according to build choices: a fighter can provide control while defending, a warlock while doing damage and a bard while healing and supporting, and so on.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 30, 2012 - 6:04PM
#10
|
Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
|
2. Strikers deal extra damage, defenders mark, and leaders heal; but what's the controller's thing? Controllers as a whole are a grab-bag of class features, only some of which actually seem to control anything. I'd love to have a shtick, like "one enemy takes -2 to attacks" or something, that I can define all controllers with. Any ideas?
Good point. The controller one has indeed been by far the most ill-defined and unaccomplished of the roles in 4e. The initial AoE /minions killers resume really didn't cut it.
Back to the question:
Short answer: kill the controller role.
Long answer: I like to think of control as the ability to inflict conditions and states which affect negatively enemies actions and tactics. Also, unlike other roles, I consider there is no room for a pure controller in 4e, but this is rather a secondary function within each class, which can be made more or less relevant according to build choices: a fighter can provide control while defending, a warlock while doing damage and a bard while healing and supporting, and so on.
I feel like everyone who complains controllers shouldn't exist haven't seen what hard-control can do to an encounter. Tell Silent Malediction or Sleep (both of which are level 1) that they aren't a clearly defined thing. Control is about being the opposite of a Leader. Leader rallies your team, buffs the players and grants extra attacks. Control neuters the enemies, cripples them with debuffs and denies them actions.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out hereSpoiler:
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
|
|
|
