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5 months ago ::
Jan 03, 2013 - 7:27AM
#601
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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One where the entire party doesn't have to do the same thing at the same time.
So you get to pick your nose during the fight (or something just as effective... )? Great teamwork.
..You stretched out while he saved the day, here is a plus one on your next attempt to squeeze through a narrow space.
Complex activities including fights are done very poorly by a pack of individuals ...actual teams work better.
All my examples were out of combat. We are talking about three pillars, not one, right?
Sure just as saving the day refers to any significant important thing.. in combat or out, and I want to see team work and synergy benefits in and out of combat to me that would be a step forward... abandonment of the skill challenge is just a rewind.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 03, 2013 - 7:56AM
#602
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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I want the game to be designed so that a party of 4 fighters can get through any published module. This probably means increasing the fighter's out of combat capabilities and a reduced emphasis on magical healing. If the game cannot allow such a party to function, I'll simply play a better game.
This would be awesome. ANd have all the Fighters actually different from each other too. That would be cool too.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 03, 2013 - 8:16AM
#603
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The beauty of 3ed's rich skill system is that it gives your character so many interesting things to do outside combat.
Not only that, in many situations a skill check could be just as vital to success or survival as a combat roll.
Because of that not all class-balance needed to be made with combat in mind.
I've seen many a fighter or cleric who had much more combat-efficiency through feats and spells, than rogues and bard who had less... lament that in other game situations they didn't have this skill or that like the bard and rogue who had plenty of them.
Skill-focused character in 3ed could be just as fun combat-oriented ones.
And I've had some players who would much rather be a "swiss-knife" and have many utilities than be great in combat.
I'm not sure the overly-simplified skill system we have right now on 5ed would allow that kind of player the same ammount of fun with a skill-based character.
So I guess as it is now combat is the only relevant thing to balance between classes, althoug I would much rather see the skill system enriched and more classes with skill-focused possibilities.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 03, 2013 - 8:51AM
#604
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One where the entire party doesn't have to do the same thing at the same time.
So you get to pick your nose during the fight (or something just as effective... )? Great teamwork.
..You stretched out while he saved the day, here is a plus one on your next attempt to squeeze through a narrow space.
Complex activities including fights are done very poorly by a pack of individuals ...actual teams work better.
All my examples were out of combat. We are talking about three pillars, not one, right?
Sure just as saving the day refers to any significant important thing.. in combat or out, and I want to see team work and synergy benefits in and out of combat to me that would be a step forward... abandonment of the skill challenge is just a rewind.
I am not sure what you think I'm getting at. I never said abondon skill challenges, nor do I want synergy to go away. I like it when my players work as a team. When I'm a player, I generally play characters that are support roles because that's what I enjoy. So I guess we agree. 
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5 months ago ::
Jan 03, 2013 - 9:39AM
#605
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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I want the game to be designed so that a party of 4 fighters can get through any published module. This probably means increasing the fighter's out of combat capabilities and a reduced emphasis on magical healing. If the game cannot allow such a party to function, I'll simply play a better game.
This would be awesome. ANd have all the Fighters actually different from each other too. That would be cool too.
4 fighters works in the current packet for the mst part. Yeah there are some "requirements" for a well rounded party. However most of those things can be covered by backgrounds and specialties. In fact the fighter builds hardly matter. Just make them synergistic in their combat execution and your all set. Make sure you proper ly balance defending controlling and dps within your group and your all set. From there it really is about the backgrounds and specialties.
I suggest the following custom specialty be used by at least one of the fighters (this requires one house ruling/change that should totally, and can totally, be made to the system):
Level 1: Herbalism
Level 3: Magical Rejuvination
Level 6: Pure Magic
Level 9: Restore Life
Noted failure of the system: the healing initiate feat. It is basically useless and would only be taken as the prerequisite of the restore life feat. The restore life feat should instead require the herbalism feat (as the restore life feat requires the use of healing kits)...and the healing initiate feat should be dropped. It is kind of a trap option. Ignoring that full on failure (just the healing initiate feat tax and not the level requirement which I am fine with) and correcting it as I suggested at least 1 of the fighters should have that specialty or at least know someone with that specialty he can bring the party to when it is needed.
Other than that one specialty fill in with experts and maybe someone with at least mage hand and prestedigitation (two of the best and most versatile spells in the game in my opinion). Maybe one combat monster (likely best spent on a sword and board defender type of guy), but really because you are all fighters you hardly need to spend feats on combat at all and can use those to fill in for other stuff.
For backgrounds I can't really say definitively. There are certain skills I would say are very important and certain traits may be increasingly useful (temple services is a good one and a background involving that trait would be a good one for the guy with the custom healing speciality).
The 4 fighter group can totally work in this packet (with minor changes made to one feat that is admittedly broken). You still need to build a party that covers all the proper bases. That is never going to change, and shouldn't ever change because being prepared for all eventualities is a good thing people should learn. However you can totally make 4 Characters with the fighter class that can get the jobs done.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 03, 2013 - 10:39AM
#606
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Complex activities including fights are done very poorly by a pack of individuals ...actual teams work better.
In combat (for the billionth time) everyone contributes just as they did in the skill challenge. They do it in their own way. The cleric may heal instead of doing damage. The thief may hide to gain an advantage instead of doing damage. They all participate.
A thief hiding every other round, for example, doesn't exactly sound like "team work" to me. Now, a Fighter that uses a maneuver to trip an opponent, granting the thief advantage to trigger Sneak Attack sounds like team work. A cleric that heals people of damage, also doesn't sound much like team work, since that functionality could just as easily be handled by drinking potions or something like that (which is why Clerics can generally do healing AND something else on the same turn).
Hmm, I don't have a ton of experience with MMOs, but I do know that a lot of people don't like the idea of playing a Cleric that only does healing, but the role of a Healer in an MMO is generally accepted and sometimes preferred. Does anyone know why there is the discrepancy? Is it mostly coming from the real time nature of healing where you have to really pay attention in order to heal your allies in time that doesn't exist in a table top game with each player taking one turn at a time?
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5 months ago ::
Jan 03, 2013 - 11:11AM
#607
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2004
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I think what's hurting the fighter is that people want him to be DPR, the traditional role of the rank and file combatants is really control, combat in the real world just tends to be hyper lethal compared to the game worlds.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 03, 2013 - 12:17PM
#608
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2008
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Hmm, I don't have a ton of experience with MMOs, but I do know that a lot of people don't like the idea of playing a Cleric that only does healing, but the role of a Healer in an MMO is generally accepted and sometimes preferred. Does anyone know why there is the discrepancy? Is it mostly coming from the real time nature of healing where you have to really pay attention in order to heal your allies in time that doesn't exist in a table top game with each player taking one turn at a time?
I do have a fair amount of experience in MMO's
The two hardest roles to fill when I've played have always been Healer and Tank (which just so happens to be my favorite 2 roles). The easiest role to fill is usually the DPS roles as lots of folks like to see the big damage numbers. It is almost always easier to find a group for dificult group content if you are a healer or tank and much more dificult to find one as a damage dealer.
On the other hand some folks REALLY enjoy the feeling of having the group success depend on them being in top shape or just like the ability to find groups quickly by being a tank or healer.
Another thing is that most games have gone away from roles being as strict as they were in the past. It is much easier to have a dps version of your healing classes that you can swap in and out of so you are not always stuck being healbot.
Many games have also gone away from straight healing roles to allow for healing to go along with doing damage at least in part or like GW2 where there ARE no dedicated healers instead having all classes able to heal themselves and several classes having minor group healing ability.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 03, 2013 - 12:28PM
#609
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Complex activities including fights are done very poorly by a pack of individuals ...actual teams work better.
In combat (for the billionth time) everyone contributes just as they did in the skill challenge. They do it in their own way. The cleric may heal instead of doing damage. The thief may hide to gain an advantage instead of doing damage. They all participate.
A thief hiding every other round, for example, doesn't exactly sound like "team work" to me. Now, a Fighter that uses a maneuver to trip an opponent, granting the thief advantage to trigger Sneak Attack sounds like team work. A cleric that heals people of damage, also doesn't sound much like team work, since that functionality could just as easily be handled by drinking potions or something like that (which is why Clerics can generally do healing AND something else on the same turn).
Hmm, I don't have a ton of experience with MMOs, but I do know that a lot of people don't like the idea of playing a Cleric that only does healing, but the role of a Healer in an MMO is generally accepted and sometimes preferred. Does anyone know why there is the discrepancy? Is it mostly coming from the real time nature of healing where you have to really pay attention in order to heal your allies in time that doesn't exist in a table top game with each player taking one turn at a time?
I was simply using the thief as an example. Your example is fine as well. The problem arises when you start letting characters do too much in a round. At first, Next was severely limiting this, understanding that some players were getting a little tired of every encounter lasting over an hour. (I know there are many that say they don't. I've timed about 300 with various party make-ups of 6 players and different level of skilled players. If you wish to refute this, show me in video form please.)
So now you have to walk the line of making the combat longer (something that goes against their design goal) or making sure a player can do a bunch of things on his/her turn. For me, I like both. I enjoy it when the round only lasts 2 minutes. A player may just run up and whack. Another hides. Another heals. Another throws a web spell. I also like it when everyone has to slow down and really focus on tactics. They have to know their position and the position of their enemies. That's fun as well.
And I don't really think it's fair to compare MMO's with this. If we do that, I can draw up a lot of comparisons about class mechanics, limiting factors, and the need for each class member to be present that would present many people's views, but wouldn't necessarily be fair either.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 03, 2013 - 12:59PM
#610
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2006
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..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />4E's Probelm is that you have to spend the majority of powers, feats and other choices you made to be combat-oriented to continue to be effective in combat, whereas doing so wouldn't negatively affect your out of combat abilities much. A character who was build 100% for combat would still be very effective in other areas of the game. The way I believe it should be is if that you build a character purely for combat, they will suck outside of combat, regardless of class. If you build a character for skill challenges, social encounters and other non combat encounters, they will suck in combat.
If you build a character with combat challenges and non-combat challenges in mind, they will be capable in both.
No, that's a bad design. You never want people to be able to trade non-combat abilities for combat abilities. You instead want to force people to take both, that's the general goal of a class/level system, to force people into advancing in a more well-rounded fashion instead of a freeform points system (like GURPS) where you can just advance one stat fully without advancing anything else.
Because here's the thing, by just having the wizard exist at all, you're ensuring that everyone has combat and noncombat stuff, because the wizard can learn both combat and noncombat spells just by virtue of picking the wizard class. That means the other classes need to be equally well rounded.
The idea that anyone can be the big dumb fighter with no skills needs to die in a fire. That shouldn't even exist as an option.
+1
And lets not forget that if you want to play a big dumb fighter, then just ignore your "smartstuff"
The essential theme song-
Get a little bit a fluff da' fluff, get a little bit a fluff da' fluff! (ooh yeah) Repeat
Unless noted otherwise every thing I post is my opinion, and probably should be taken as tongue in cheek any way.
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