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Dungeons & Dra.. D&D Next General D.. Polymorph: In need of more revision/limitation?
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 02, 2013 - 9:32AM #91
Maxperson
Date Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 22,514

Dec 29, 2012 -- 8:28PM, Salla wrote:

I'm thinking less 'revision/limitation' and more 'removal'.




So remove it from your game.  I happen to like the spell and don't want it removed from mine.

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 02, 2013 - 9:44AM #92
Arithezoo
Date Joined: Aug 31, 2008
Posts: 3,288
The description of the spell is really quite clear, and applies to both versions of the spell (hostile target and friendly target, which includes the caster):

"The new form can be any beast whose number of Hit Dice is equal to or less than that of the target creature."

Note that it specically says, "beast" and not "creature".  Beast is a creature type, along with monstrosity, construct, aberration, humanoid, giant, undead, etc.

Note that these are D&D game terms, and thus referencing a dictionary definition is simply being silly.  For example, a giant is technically humanoid, in that it resembles a human: it stands upright on two legs, has a body, two arms, a head, etc.  For that matter, an iron golem is also a humanoid.  But neither of these things are "humanoids" in D&D terms, because "humanoid" in D&D has a specific meaning separate from the dictionary definition.

Just because something can be argued, doesn't mean it is at all correct.  People can argue pretty much anything.

The assumption in D&D should be that when a word is used that matches a keyword, the first default is to assume the word is referring to said keyword.  So, for example, if a feat says that it requires the use of a finesse weapon, you assume it is referring to the "finesse" keyword that certain weapons have as a trait.  You should not attempt to argue that it simply means you need to weild your weapon with a certain amount of finesse.  It is a game term.

I hope this puts the issue to rest, and I look forward to reading further arguments.
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 02, 2013 - 9:48AM #93
Jenks
Date Joined: Apr 4, 2008
Posts: 2,497
I'm sure that a vague description of the spell was not the intent of the designers. It seems sloppy because i'm sure most of their attention is being pulled elsewhere. It's not a sign of the spell being out of whack.

But good for you guys for pointing it out. That's what a playtest is for. Hopefully they will correct it in the future.
My two copper.



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5 months ago  ::  Jan 02, 2013 - 11:40AM #94
Steely_Dan
Date Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 8,628
Beast, that's it, and you know it, you can take the form of a Beast monster type, not a Construct or what-have-you...yeesh.
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 02, 2013 - 12:50PM #95
kezzek
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 1,198
Unfortunately, D&D has never stuck with using just the defined terms throughout their various materials.  They generally throw the word "dragon" around as either a type, a race, or just a description.  "Beast" was not defined specifically and at times in previous editions was replaced by animal or some other term so it is by no means defined and specific.  In fact, they use the term beast throughout the description of the displacer beast without the word displacer which allowed it to appear on a list earlier in this thread as a possible form for polymorph.
Editors get paid to make certain that confusion is avoided.  Polymorph and wildshape have always had major problems.  Wizards.com has dedicated pages and pages to the polymorph spell.  You would think they would be careful in defining it for this edition to prevent confusion.
Unfortunately, they were sloppy.

Polymorph is a power that is important to wizards and witches.  Stripping away this power is taking away an essential magical power. Poorly defined boundaries is also a problem to be avoided.  The writers should spend a little time to review the perils and pitfalls experienced with polymorph and wildshape in previous editions and developed a balanced mechanic for dealing with this.  They owe it to the players.
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