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6 months ago ::
Dec 28, 2012 - 8:09PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2012
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Some people like bounded accuracy and some people don't. Reading through the forums, the criticisms against bounded accuracy seem to fall into 2 categories:
1. Robin Hood Scenario - a novice is as good at making the shot as an expert 2. ACs are too low for powerful monsters - level 1 characters can easily hit Asmodeous
The proponents of bounded accuracy complain that high level characters are invincible since their AC is so high they can't be hit.
I think there are ways to improve bounded accuracy and satisfy both groups. If we accept that some form of bounded accuracy is going to stay, here are some possible improvements:
1 - Get rid of the "10" as the standard, starting AC. D&D has always assumed that an average unarmed and unarmored person had an AC 10. In a bounded accuracy system, a minimum of 10 really collapses the useable real-estate if you stick with the D20 model. Make the standard, starting AC a 2 so that only a 1 fails. This may sound crazy at first but think about it. For non-ranged attacks, it's actually really easy in real life to hit someone who is "standing and fighting" and not dramatically moving away or flat out running away. Now, just because you hit someone doesn't mean that you actually did any serious damage. So a low AC 2 (95% chance to hit) isn't really as ridiculous as it sounds. Whether or not you do any real damage could easily be handled on the HP side of the house (which is addressed below). If the minimum AC is 2, there are several other things that must also take place to make this effective.
2 - Dramatically lower the AC bonus of armor. They should look something like:
Padded armor = 3 + Dex modifier Leather armor = 4 + Dex modifier Hide armor = 5 + Dex modifier Studded leather = 6 + Dex modifier Scale mail = 7 + Dex modifier Ring mail = 8 Chain mail = 9 Splint = 10 Banded = 11 Plate = 12 Shield = +1 AC
3 - Add back in AC scaling with level. This helps alleviate some of the issues with bounded accuracy. A level 1 fighter in plate with a shield still only has an AC of 13 (a 40% chance of getting hit w/o bonuses). A level 20 fighter in the same plate with the same shield has an AC of 23 (a 5% chance of getting hit w/o bonuses). This way characters still get the benefit from experience without breaking the bank. The level 1 fighter is easier to hit and the level 20 knight is much harder to hit, but not impossible to hit.
4 - Get rid of almost all bonuses to hit except from class and level progression.
4.A. First, get rid of the STR bonus to hit. This isn't as bad as it sounds since bounded accuracy makes up for easy to hit ACs by adding more hit points. So while a strong character will not hit more often than a weaker one, they will do more damage. If all things else are equal, the stronger character still has a better chance of taking out their weaker twin.
4.B. Don't have Weapon proficiencies add bonuses; have them prevent penalties. If you are not proficient with a weapon and attempt to use it then you could suffer something like a -5 or -2 to your attack roll. If you are proficient with the weapon you are using then your unmodified D20 roll is your attack roll.
4.C. Add back in the attack bonus scaling by level based on class. This would help alleviate the Robin Hood syndrome and actually separate the classes from each other. I imagine something like "martial characters get a 1/2 per level bonus to attack with weapon attacks. Arcane characters get a 1/2 per level bonus to attack with arcane attacks. etc." This means at level 1 a fighter and wizard both have a 50% chance of hitting a target with an AC 10. However, at level 20 a fighter has a 95% chance of hitting that same target and a 50% chance of hitting an AC 20 target with a weapon attack. If a level 20 wizard tries to use a weapon (not their thing), they still only have a 50% chance of hitting the AC 10 target and only a 5% chance of hitting the AC 20 target. However, if the wizard casts a spell then they would also have the 95% chance to hit the AC 10 target and 50% chance to hit the AC 20 target.
5. Increase the ACs of tougher monsters. If you have a scaling attack bonus, it would be OK to have the highest level monsters with ACs of 20 - 25. A 20th character would have a 50% chance of hitting a creature with an AC of 20 and a 25% chance of hitting a creature with an AC of 25, while a level 1 character would only have a 5% chance of hitting something like a demi-god or the Duke of Hell. That doesn't sound unreasonable.
6. Increase starting Hit Points. If you are drastically decreasing ACs then it only makes sense to increase the PCs' starting HP unless you want a truly gritty campaign. This goes back to the point of above that just because you hit someone doesn't mean it was significant. It could have been mostly blocked, only a glancing blow or simple scratch or mainly absorbed by the armor, etc.
7. Add in mob tactics. This mainly for NPCs and monsters, but it would address the issue of the level 20 character who doesn't fear low level monsters because they can never be hit. Essentially, if the DM decides that NPCs or monsters form into a mob they can collectively attack a single target. This would represent a character surrounded by goblins or a group of peasant archers shooting at a dragon. It would speed up combat since you could roll one attack for the whole mob and still keep their attacks meaningful. A mob rule could look something like "The mob makes a single basic attack against a single target with an additional +1 to its attack roll for every 5 creatures in the mob. If the mob successfully hits its target, the target suffers normal damage from the single basic attack with an additional +1 damage for every 5 creatures in the mob. If the mob misses, then the mob only inflicts half damage. To be part of the mob, a creature must be able to attack the target in the same round as the rest of the creatures in the mob."
8. Add in decaying ACs. Essentially, each time a target is attacked in a round, they suffer a -1 to their AC. This addresses situations where the target is being ganged up on by multiple attackers who shouldn't or couldn't be categorized into a mob (like the PCs themselves). This would be in addition to any bonuses gained from flanking, etc. So, no matter how tough you are, the more you are attacked, the more vulnerable you are. This prevents the level 20 character from totally wading through a group of level 10 drow mercenaries because they can't even be hit.
So, besides totally abandoning bounded accuracy, what other improvements could be made?
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6 months ago ::
Dec 28, 2012 - 8:19PM
#2
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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I would have to playtest the proposal before deciding it was an improvement. 4C would be a no-go. I have yet to see a good argument on the Robinhood syndrome.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 28, 2012 - 11:05PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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1. Robin Hood Scenario - a novice is as good at making the shot as an expert
This isn't actually an issue; all melee capable classes gain a bonus to hit as they level up. Are you perhaps thinking of the reverse, in that it's as easy to hit a high level target as a low level target?
First, get rid of the STR bonus to hit. This isn't as bad as it sounds since bounded accuracy makes up for easy to hit ACs by adding more hit points. So while a strong character will not hit more often than a weaker one, they will do more damage. If all things else are equal, the stronger character still has a better chance of taking out their weaker twin.
This would be a fine system assuming they actually make the ability score damage matter across all levels; right now it's a very small portion of damage at high levels.
8. Add in decaying ACs. Essentially, each time a target is attacked in a round, they suffer a -1 to their AC. This addresses situations where the target is being ganged up on by multiple attackers who shouldn't or couldn't be categorized into a mob (like the PCs themselves). This would be in addition to any bonuses gained from flanking, etc. So, no matter how tough you are, the more you are attacked, the more vulnerable you are. This prevents the level 20 character from totally wading through a group of level 10 drow mercenaries because they can't even be hit.
This sounds like a nightmare to keep track of.
<Ioun> they're apparently making a MolIsCool pp
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6 months ago ::
Dec 29, 2012 - 7:15AM
#4
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- Forum Guide
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- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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1. Robin Hood Scenario - a novice is as good at making the shot as an expert
The Robin Hood scenario is easy to handle.
The "To hit" roll determines a binary condition: success or failure. The "damage" roll determines degree of success: how well you succeed.
So in the Robin Hood scenario, the ti-hit roll only determines is you hit the target at all. And in most archery situations most people can hit a target. The damage will then tell you how well you hit the target. The higher the damage, the closer to the bullseye you got.
This is erfectly consonant with the bonded accuracy statement and makes a heckuva lot more sense than trying to use to-hit alone, as a simple d20 roll does not have enough granularity to properly reflect the difference in skill betweem archers.
Now let's look at part II of your propsal
1 - Get rid of the "10" as the standard, starting AC. 2 - Dramatically lower the AC bonus of armor. I'd be interested in seeing that play out. I think that may in fact be a useful idea.
3 - Add back in AC scaling with level. No. This is specifically what Bounded Accuracy is doing away with. It's actually a misnomer. Bounded Accuracy should be called something like "No Assumed Scaling" because that what it is. If you scale AC with level, then you've eliminated the whole point of the BA system.
Getting tagged should not be an issue. The issue is how well you're hit.
4.A. First, get rid of the STR bonus to hit. I'd be okay with this.
4.B. Don't have Weapon proficiencies add bonuses; have them prevent penalties. Agreed. Using a weapon in which you are not proficient should give you disadvantage.
4.C. Add back in the attack bonus scaling by level based on class. Absolutely not. See Point 3, above.
5. Increase the ACs of tougher monsters. Absolutely not. See Point 3, above. If monsters are to be immune to commoners' attacks (Asmodeus vs. the villag, for example) then just give him immunity or DR. If he is tougher to hit, there should be a reason. If Asmodeus chooses to wear armor that gives him a +8 AC and has a +4 from Dex (and we got with your base assumption of AC 2 for unarmored), then he as an AC 14. If he wants to up his AC then he needs some assistance in that regard, whether it be an aura of deflection, a ring of protection, a parrying ability, or some other protection. He should not get a boost just because he is "high level"
6. Increase starting Hit Points. Sure, if we reduce base AC, we need to increase initial hp.
7. Add in mob tactics. This contradicts point 5, above. The reason you want to scale AC for high-level monsters is to make them immune to mobs. If you add in mob tactics, you've just undone the whole point of scaling AC. I'd rather not scale AC and not worry about "mob tactics" except nsofar as it makes for an interesting encounter.
8. Add in decaying ACs. That sounds like unnecessary bookkeeping.
So, besides totally abandoning bounded accuracy, what other improvements could be made? Right now, the math needs rejiggering. Creatures are too easy to kill and numbers are too low across the board. That's not an inherent problem with BA.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 29, 2012 - 8:36AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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+1 to what Wrecan said. Also, I really want to focus on the fact that neither of the two complaints are really valid. The so called "robin hood scenario" doesn't actually exist. Skill with a bow is dictated by a high stat and level in a weapon combat based class. That has been the case in every edition, and it is still the case in D&DN. You get a higher attack bonus with a high level in a weapon combat based class. You get a higher attack bonus with a high stat. That gives you a higher statistical probability of winning an archery contest. Between the skill die mechanic/and or adding your damage to your attack roll when running an archery contest, the game works just fine when modeling such contests.
Meanwhile, everyone is aware that the monster ACs need tweaking.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 29, 2012 - 9:50AM
#6
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1. Robin Hood Scenario - a novice is as good at making the shot as an expert
The Robin Hood scenario is easy to handle.
The "To hit" roll determines a binary condition: success or failure. The "damage" roll determines degree of success: how well you succeed.
So in the Robin Hood scenario, the ti-hit roll only determines is you hit the target at all. And in most archery situations most people can hit a target. The damage will then tell you how well you hit the target. The higher the damage, the closer to the bullseye you got.
This still leaves us with the basic objection; Robin Hood misses the entire target all too often. He may hit the elephant in the eye with every hit, but he misses the entire elephant almost as often as a novice. [We also have the reverse problem in the pseudo-bounded accuracy that is being discussed. Our novice quite simply can't hit the bulls-eye at all since he does far less damage with a hit.] For any sort of non-combat archery, we have this problem. Robin Hood just fails frequently at when should be a gimmie, and some red shirt is almost as good as him.
This is erfectly consonant with the bonded accuracy statement
Depends on the statement. But in terms of keeping the orc relevant, you need to hire a lawyer who is good at showing black is white. Whether the PC gets more hp or better AC, the orc becomes unimportant at higher levels. One way he hits only on a 20. The other he barely does enoungh damage to notice. Either way it's not going to be an even fight at those higher levels.
and makes a heckuva lot more sense than trying to use to-hit alone, as a simple d20 roll does not have enough granularity to properly reflect the difference in skill betweem archers.
Bounded accuracy is designed to reduce granularity. Critizing the alternatives for not having something hardly fies when it has even less.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 29, 2012 - 9:59AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Dec 20, 2012
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+1 from me also on what wrecan said.
Also...
I love suggestions 1 and 2. Would like to see how 1 plays out especially. It makes a lot of sense that unless you have some terrible luck you can hit an unarmored human standing still more than half the time! Can't say enough how much I like this idea.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:37AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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I agree with wrecan on this: damage is the number to look at. I have never understood the whole "archery contest" argument in which your performance is based on your attack roll result. When you attack a monster, a hit is a hit. If I hit the monster exactly, you don't say, "You just barely hit him", right? Because that implies just a graze which wouldn't be much damage, but I could still roll max damage and kill the monster.
The hit roll is simply determining whether or not you hit, nothing more. It is the damage roll that differentiates between grazing the target an hitting it in the eye.
So for an archery contest, the target wouldn't have a very high AC, because it isn't hard to hit the target. For the harder contests, the target would be farther away, thus increasing the AC (or just giving a penalty to hit, same result). Each circle on the target would then get an HP threshold (you must do this much damage to enter), ending with the bullseye. Yes, this does mean that a novice might not stand any chance of hitting the bullseye, but I think this is good. I don't think a novice should have a 5% chance to get a bullseye. And don't forget extra damage from a crit, which means the novice might actually have a chance. With the longbow he does 1d8+8 damage on a crit. If you make the bullseye threshold 16 damage, the novice has a 0.625% chance of hitting the bullseye. Sounds about right.
Now, in terms of this idea that Robin Hood (or any master archer) can't hit things any more often than a novice, even in D&D Next that just isn't true. I consider a novice to be someone with no training and no natural skill: a level 1 commoner with a 10 Dexterity. An average joe. Attack bonus: +0. Also, they aren't proficient, so they have disadvantage (this is part of the current rules, it is just burried on page 15 of the How to Play file). Robin Hood, on the other hand, has a 20 Dex, and a +5 from level, giving him a +10 to hit. 1d20 + 10 vs. 2d20 (take the lowest) doesn't exactly seem like a fair fight to me.
In terms of lowering defenses, I'd be fine with it, but I'm not sure about everyone else. The whole AC 10 thing is so fundamental to D&D that it might be a mistake to change it.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:48AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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This still leaves us with the basic objection; Robin Hood misses the entire target all too often. He may hit the elephant in the eye with every hit, but he misses the entire elephant almost as often as a novice. [We also have the reverse problem in the pseudo-bounded accuracy that is being discussed. Our novice quite simply can't hit the bulls-eye at all since he does far less damage with a hit.] For any sort of non-combat archery, we have this problem. Robin Hood just fails frequently at when should be a gimmie, and some red shirt is almost as good as him.
That is 100% false. Seeing as Robin Hood is defined by high dex and a higher level in a weapon using class, he will have a higher attack bonus, and will have a higher chance to hit the target. He will not miss the target as often as a novice. A level 1 novice attacks with a +5 bonus at best. A level 20 master attacks with a +10 bonus. Meanwhile, how much damage you deal reflects what ring you strike. It works, and it works well. In fact, it works better than the challenge has ever worked before!
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6 months ago ::
Dec 29, 2012 - 3:18PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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7. Add in mob tactics. This contradicts point 5, above. The reason you want to scale AC for high-level monsters is to make them immune to mobs. If you add in mob tactics, you've just undone the whole point of scaling AC. I'd rather not scale AC and not worry about "mob tactics" except nsofar as it makes for an interesting encounter.
I want team work ... to be explicitly requred.. so the "mob tactics" may be a wrong name but thats my thought, I want heroic leaders to transform the group who really cant touch those monsters normally to be capable and inspired to stand up and stay steady, improving both impact and ability to survive.
Since these are for me about the players interacting with the scenario (its really silly otherwise) ... the heros guidance should be what makes the difference.
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