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6 months ago ::
Dec 27, 2012 - 1:13PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2011
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Well guys, 's the second session I have where our players spam healing surges during short rests, and they're becoming VERY nit-picky about it.
Every two- three encounters they have to take a rest because they're being mauled, by mobs their level or lower... I always use easy-normal encounter templates. The group is Warden, Cleric, Barbarian, Rogue and Shaman. The warden just sucks... human warden, he draws aggro and defends the grup AOE, but eve with optimal equipment his AC is 23 and enemies have +14 to hits at those levels, which pretty much sucks. The cleric is revived every session because she takes too many risks, and the rogue... well... he's broken.
This had made me think maybe I should tweak a little bit the hort Rests, since it's become essential to them, and they run out of surges VERY quickly. I iked the rules shown on D&D Next playtest... dunno if I should apply.
Then it comes to traps, insight, and perception. I know, I KNOW players can take a 20, but this echanic ruins most of traps. Let's say this happens.
ROGUE: I check the door for traps
*I roll the die behind my screen*
ME: Candy checks for traps on the door, but she can't find anything
ROGUE: Well then I take a 20
ME: ...You find an acid blaster trap
ROGUE: ^^ Ok
So I really don't know how to use traps ithous breaking the rules, or how to apply the "Take a 20" rule. They usually clear the rooms and have a tactic to let the enemies out, and when they notice enemies lure them or act intelligently, they usually have the shaman bomb them with spirit powers or ranged primal powers... Then they go and take a 20... or whenever I want to make a trap-only room, that's when I fail.
Ok, now, about level scaling mounts... I've checked the DMs guide and PH and I can't find anywhere about mounts gaining exp. The Barbarian has a mount, and the character and the drake have an intense partnership, like a human and his dog. I WOULD like to have rules to scale him... but I don't know how, if they exist where to find them, or which bases to follow.
Thanks
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6 months ago ::
Dec 27, 2012 - 1:53PM
#2
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You can't "take 20" in 4e. You can "take 10" in a low stress situation (as the DM you get to determine if the situation is low-stress). The way to apply the "take 20" rule in 4e is that it doesn't exist and you should never do it.
Mounts don't scale in 4e. Which is code for: They suck and you shouldn't have a mount. But if you want it to, just level it up with the Barb and use monster math to scale it (can find that in the DMG).
As for Short Rests: it is perfectly normal to take a short rest after every encounter. It is expected, in fact. And you spend healing surges to get back up to full HP, also perfectly normal. Every encounter. Not every 2-3. PCs should start every encounter with (nearly, sometimes you're like 2 hp away from full you don't want to spend another surge) full health, all their encounter powers, etc.
+14 to hit means the monsters are level 9. A Warden should have level+18 AC, though since he is Human, he'll have level+17 without further optimization. 23-9 is 14. That is three points off of where he should be. So there is something very wrong with his build, or his interpretation of the rules, or both. And probably the builds of everyone else in the party, if they are being mauled by normal encounters.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 27, 2012 - 2:00PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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There's always the "practical take 20" which is that any skill that allows repeated tries, with enough time, can be assumed to be successful to arbitrarily small percentages of error.
Most skills have some sort of failure clause that prevents abusive behavior of this sort, however. But not all.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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6 months ago ::
Dec 27, 2012 - 2:07PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2011
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You can't "take 20" in 4e. You can "take 10" in a low stress situation (as the DM you get to determine if the situation is low-stress). The way to apply the "take 20" rule in 4e is that it doesn't exist and you should never do it.
Mounts don't scale in 4e. Which is code for: They suck and you shouldn't have a mount. But if you want it to, just level it up with the Barb and use monster math to scale it (can find that in the DMG).
As for Short Rests: it is perfectly normal to take a short rest after every encounter. It is expected, in fact. And you spend healing surges to get back up to full HP, also perfectly normal. Every encounter. Not every 2-3. PCs should start every encounter with (nearly, sometimes you're like 2 hp away from full you don't want to spend another surge) full health, all their encounter powers, etc.
+14 to hit means the monsters are level 9. A Warden should have level+18 AC, though since he is Human, he'll have level+17 without further optimization. 23-9 is 14. That is three points off of where he should be. So there is something very wrong with his build, or his interpretation of the rules, or both. And probably the builds of everyone else in the party, if they are being mauled by normal encounters.
The party is Level 7 right now. The Warden is wearing Chainmail Magic Armor +2, has a Heavy Shield, and Improved defenses (not a bonus to AC but oh well); the chainmail is due a feat he got. He used the standard array of 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 pre-ratial, and is a human.
The monsters I use are from Monster Manual 3. A Yeti Skirmisher has +11 to his attacks, being that most of my party's AC is between 22-24. If he gets a 15, or even a 13, he can land quite the hit against my players.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 27, 2012 - 2:18PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Er...your Warden is doing it wrong.
Wardens are supposed to use Hide, not Chain. They get a class feature that gives them an armor bonus appropriate to their choice of Guardian Might, which should be paired with the appropriate secondary stat (either Con or Wis).
The standard array is generally suboptimal for Wardens, as they benefit very strongly from two high scores. As a human with the standard array and assuming you put the bonus into Strength, you are in fact actually behind Chain in AC. So, I suppose spending the feat isn't all that bad, but it's a fixable situation.
But the real issue is that you're using a monster higher level than the party. Such monsters are always going to have inflated hit rates - it is the nature of the 4e system of scaling accuracy bonuses. The same magnitude of difference is shown in the Yeti you mentioned - as a level 5, it's two levels below the party and going to have a terrible hit rate.
The game really does expect you to make full use of Point Buy when it's appropriate. It works with the Standard Array, but only just barely and only if the DM doesn't throw any above-level monsters at the party.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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6 months ago ::
Dec 27, 2012 - 2:18PM
#6
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Smack him, tell him to not waste feats.
Chainmail is a heavy armor. Heavy armor does not get +stat to AC. Cloth, Leather, and Hide are Light armors. In light armor, you get +Dex or +Int to AC (Whichever is higher). All Warden builds have a class feature that says "Instead of Dex or Int, you get Wis or Con to AC." His array is very bad for this build, he should have 16 Str+2 racial, and then either 16 Wis or Con, depending on his build. Boost Str and his secondary stat at every stat boost.
I'd encourage everyone in your group to read the PHB/RC rules and check out the class handbooks in the Character Optimization forum. Your group is really unaware of the rules and 4e is very rules centric.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 27, 2012 - 2:55PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2011
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Smack him, tell him to not waste feats.
Chainmail is a heavy armor. Heavy armor does not get +stat to AC. Cloth, Leather, and Hide are Light armors. In light armor, you get +Dex or +Int to AC (Whichever is higher). All Warden builds have a class feature that says "Instead of Dex or Int, you get Wis or Con to AC." His array is very bad for this build, he should have 16 Str+2 racial, and then either 16 Wis or Con, depending on his build. Boost Str and his secondary stat at every stat boost.
I'd encourage everyone in your group to read the PHB/RC rules and check out the class handbooks in the Character Optimization forum. Your group is really unaware of the rules and 4e is very rules centric.
Well... I'd have to take the Warden and the cleric apart then. The rogue is quite optimized, has AC 26, and getting ready for frostcheese. We have a Paladin who comes to play once in a while, and at our level she has more than 24 AC and is quite durable. I have their character sheets (in fact, I own the handbooks, sheets and materials), and well... I notice how many other pre-ratial Stats are 18, 14, 14, 13, 10, 8.
Back to mount scaling, how "broken" can it get? My barb LOVES mounting and being with his drake, but I don't want it to become a party popper for the others.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 27, 2012 - 3:24PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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> So I really don't know how to use traps ithous breaking the rules
Don't use them that way.
Traps work well as part of encounters, but they're almost never effective as standalone features unless they're so big, complicated, and obvious that they constitute a puzzle encounter rather than a trap.
The developers were pointing out the problems, both in the game world and in the real world, with 'gotcha' traps on doors/floors/cabinets/etc long before 4E came out. To paraphrase one, "They will develop elaborate procedures for for opening every door, and the pace of the game will slow to a crawl. How much of your limited gaming time do you really want to dedicate to door-opening?"
(I wish I had the link to the actual article handy, but I'm missing my old bookmarks...)
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6 months ago ::
Dec 27, 2012 - 3:44PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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You can't "take 20" in 4e. You can "take 10" in a low stress situation (as the DM you get to determine if the situation is low-stress). The way to apply the "take 20" rule in 4e is that it doesn't exist and you should never do it.
DMG p.41 "Unless the characters are under a time constraint, assume that they’re going to roll a 20 eventually, and use the best possible Perception check result for the party. (Effectively, this result equals the best passive Perception check +10.) Assume the characters spend a minute or two searching, and move on to tell them what they find."
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6 months ago ::
Dec 27, 2012 - 8:08PM
#10
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You can't "take 20" in 4e. You can "take 10" in a low stress situation (as the DM you get to determine if the situation is low-stress). The way to apply the "take 20" rule in 4e is that it doesn't exist and you should never do it.
DMG p.41 "Unless the characters are under a time constraint, assume that they’re going to roll a 20 eventually, and use the best possible Perception check result for the party. (Effectively, this result equals the best passive Perception check +10.) Assume the characters spend a minute or two searching, and move on to tell them what they find."
Addresses a specific situation. Also the players cannot take 20. The DM can allow them to take 20, at their perogative. Not the same thing.
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