If 'Dragon Scales' need Damage Reduction, so does Armour. Do NOT add a new mechanic that applies only to the monsters, otherwise you'll end up breaking the system even further.
How, I wonder, do things turn out when you use a mated pair of dragons as an encounter rather than just one dragon?
I mean, back in the day there were plenty of encounters in modules that were multiple dragons of less than wyrm age (adults looking to make a clutch of hatchlings, siblings that raid together, etc.) - so how does that play out?
I'll be honest, if we give up on dragon singular for dragon plural, especially in a way that allows a high level party the ability to battle a dozen adult dragons assaulting a city I will be happy.
I mean, it's dungeons & dragons - not dungeons & dragon.
Careful, man. That much logic might be illegal on the internet. - Salla
Giving dragons spells, or even a couple of spell-like abilities, would probably raise the degree of difficulty significantly. I think the best thing to do in addition to that is to increase their attack bonus by a point or two, and their armor class by a point or two as well.
For example, black dragons have the Darkness spell listed under customization. The red dragon has Dominate listed. Add a couple of other things to each of these lists, for maybe a total of 5 spells, and dragons are a whole new ballgame.
Also, I think that the blue dragon's Lightening Blood should be translated as a general feature of dragons, giving each dragon a different type of damage dealt for wounding them after they drop to half.
I think the simplest solution (that I see at least) is buffing up the dragon's health. AC doesn't have to be much higher, if at all (especially when taking the desired bounded acuracy system into concern). Once you buff up the health, the fight is going to take a lot longer. And even if the dragon cannot do tons of damage in a turn or two, after 5 or 6 rounds the party is going to be pretty worn out. I would like to see a mention of the maturity of the dragons in the Bestiary. Because it would be fine if this sort dragon was a young or mid ages dragon. But once you have an ancient dragon on your hands, you really should be **** in your pants. I always liked when campaigns approached dragons in such a way that there may be a somewhat healthy population of "average" dragons with a few truely terrifying behemothic dragons.
Also, environment and personality are big factors. If you look at the 4th edition lore of blue dragons, they approach combat in the long term and often from a distance. A stationary dragon might not be the most terrifying thing for a party (if we look at OP's simulation), but if you are facing a dragon that is doing hit and run tactics, blasting you at a range with its breath weapon and maybe disappearing for minutes or hours, waiting to strike, then you're going to want to worry.
I have a humble opinion to interject into this if I may.
I tend to view dragons as intelligent creatures that would only attack if they had the upper hand in a fight. Like, I think a dragon would prefer to fight the adventurers in its lair rather than the open plains. I tend to think if a dragon is flying around, Skyrim-style, attack random passersby, then it kinda deserves a good waffle-stomping.
One of the more memorable dragon fights I had was in 3.0e against a white dragon. Our group entered its lair and saw the treasure on the opposite side of a huge room with thick ice covering the floor. The white dragon we were hunting wasn't in sight. Those of us who couldn't fly (*grumble*) began balancing our way across (hilariously watching the paladin play slip and slide). About half way across, the ice breaks and we all fall in the water. The dragon was in the water waiting for us. It had a couple ioun stones and spells up allowing it to proceed beating us mercilessly. We all managed to swim to the land the treasure was sitting on and proceeded to recover and defeat the dragon. I died, but not before putting a good full attack, two-weapon fighting, sneak attack, hurting on it (I was later resurrected).
But that, to me, is what a dragon fight should be. Not just trading blows, but the players overcoming the traps, minions, unique terrain that gives the dragon an advantage, and unique abilities that a dragon may have. In fact, most DMs I've played with have had to beef up dragons from the Bestiaries of previous editions just to deal with the group.
All of that said, it does sound like the longevity of these dragons should be revisited in an effort to make the dragons a bit more...robust. I like the suggestion of damage reduction. Higher AC might be too much of a bummer, though. I would rather do reduced damage than miss completely.
Personally, I would even like to see age categories for the dragons make a comeback. That white dragon strikes me as being more of a juvenile =).
Actually it's quite the opposite. Dragons are at their most vulnerable in their lairs because they don't have room to fly in them and can get pummeled by martial characters. Outside the dragon can simply fly and breathe on the party while taking arrow and spell damage at the most.
I have a humble opinion to interject into this if I may.
I tend to view dragons as intelligent creatures that would only attack if they had the upper hand in a fight. Like, I think a dragon would prefer to fight the adventurers in its lair rather than the open plains. I tend to think if a dragon is flying around, Skyrim-style, attack random passersby, then it kinda deserves a good waffle-stomping.
One of the more memorable dragon fights I had was in 3.0e against a white dragon. Our group entered its lair and saw the treasure on the opposite side of a huge room with thick ice covering the floor. The white dragon we were hunting wasn't in sight. Those of us who couldn't fly (*grumble*) began balancing our way across (hilariously watching the paladin play slip and slide). About half way across, the ice breaks and we all fall in the water. The dragon was in the water waiting for us. It had a couple ioun stones and spells up allowing it to proceed beating us mercilessly. We all managed to swim to the land the treasure was sitting on and proceeded to recover and defeat the dragon. I died, but not before putting a good full attack, two-weapon fighting, sneak attack, hurting on it (I was later resurrected).
But that, to me, is what a dragon fight should be. Not just trading blows, but the players overcoming the traps, minions, unique terrain that gives the dragon an advantage, and unique abilities that a dragon may have. In fact, most DMs I've played with have had to beef up dragons from the Bestiaries of previous editions just to deal with the group.
All of that said, it does sound like the longevity of these dragons should be revisited in an effort to make the dragons a bit more...robust. I like the suggestion of damage reduction. Higher AC might be too much of a bummer, though. I would rather do reduced damage than miss completely.
Personally, I would even like to see age categories for the dragons make a comeback. That white dragon strikes me as being more of a juvenile =).
Actually it's quite the opposite. Dragons are at their most vulnerable in their lairs because they don't have room to fly in them and can get pummeled by martial characters. Outside the dragon can simply fly and breathe on the party while taking arrow and spell damage at the most.
Another thing to consider is the different personality types of dragons. I'm going to go with the 4e Draconomicon descriptions for this example. A red dragon is actually quite likely to jump right down into melee with an adventuring group because it wants to boast its superior strength. However a blue dragon thinks about combat in the long term and is also a long distance combatant. It will fly around shooting at long range and might disapear for hours before seeing a good moment to strike. Green dragons will likely have many minions under its command that can fight with it, if not entirely for it. Black dragons use their environment (swamps and forests commonly) to blend in. It might strike and suddenly disappear within a few seconds. That's a whole different ballgame than just exchanging blows. Oh and age categories are definitely needed. A collossal ancient dragon should be pretty ****ing terrifying and should dominate you if you're just exchanging blows.
How, I wonder, do things turn out when you use a mated pair of dragons as an encounter rather than just one dragon?
I mean, back in the day there were plenty of encounters in modules that were multiple dragons of less than wyrm age (adults looking to make a clutch of hatchlings, siblings that raid together, etc.) - so how does that play out?
I'll be honest, if we give up on dragon singular for dragon plural, especially in a way that allows a high level party the ability to battle a dozen adult dragons assaulting a city I will be happy.
I mean, it's dungeons & dragons - not dungeons & dragon.
I like that. I remember back in 2E an adventure from Dungeon (called "Steelheart" I think) that featured dragon encounters with multiple dragons, A pair of mated reds, a group of young dragons, and some other mated pairs, don't remember much. The threat factor is definitely higher.
On a side note, I found the transcript. I'll post it tomorrow, too tired now... (0200 in Athens)
OK, finally found the time to sit down and copy the combat transcript.
Setup: 6 × Lvl5 PCs vs White dragon in lair. PCs are: a High Elf Wizard [Battle Mage] (Wiz1), a human Wizard [Illusionist] (Wiz2), a halfling Monk (Mnk), A human Cleric [the Warbringer] (Clr), a Wood Elf Fighter [Archer setup] (Archer), and a Mountain Dwarf Fighter [Protector setup] (Dwarf).
The dragon's lair is a 23 × 16 squares cave (an A2-sized battle mat), 30 feet high, with a single opening. I'm not interested in whether the dragon could escape or not, just to see how the fight worked out. Of course, if it were an actual part of a plot, the dragon would have an escape route.
Magic Items in the party: 2 × warhammer +1 (Clr, Dwrf), a wand of enemy detection (Wiz1). Some potions of healing, which were never used anyway.
I assumed the dragon was aware of the PCs approaching, and allowed 2 rounds of preparation for each side.
Preparation: Clr casts prayer, Wiz1 casts haste on Archer. Dragon casts freezing fog in the middle of its lair, moves to the back, and waits (nothing else to use).
Party enters lair, both sides roll initiative. Wiz1 used a charge from his wand of enemy detection. Archer and Mnk had Improved Initiative. Final Initiative rolls are as follows:
Not much to say here. Obviously a bad start (natural 1...), but even if it had rolled a natural 20, the only one it would have played before would be the Dwarf, as the Clr had a Dex of 14.
Round 1: Wiz1: Fails save against frightful presence, chooses to cast maximized fireball instead of using action to reroll save. [The player was actually hoping the dragon had vulnerability to fire.] Dragon saves, takes 18 damage. Wiz1 moves away from dragon and out of the battle mat. Mnk: Fails save against frightful presence, uses action to reroll save, succeeds, and moves closer. Does not get in area of freezing fog. Wiz2: Succeeds on save against frightful presence, casts inivisibility on herself, moves away from rest of group. Clr: Succeeds on save against frightful presence, casts protection from evil on himself, moves away from rest of group. Archer: Succeeds on save against frightful presence, makes two attacks with longbow, both with advantage due to his First Strike feat. first attack succeeds (19 damage), second misses. Dwarf: Succeeds on save against frightful presence, approaches dragon, gets in area of freezing fog, not enough movement to get within melee range of dragon. Dragon: Moves within freezing fog area, (best position for breath), breathes, catches Clr, Dwarf, and Archer, rolls 16 damage on breath. Only Archer succeeds on Dex save.
Comments: Clearly, the party failed to understand they had two rounds to prepare, and spent actions casting more buffs. Otherwise, damage to the dragon would probably have been higher. Frightful presence also helped, because the Mnk essentially lost the first round. Even so, the dragon is already at -37, (slightly) more than one-third of total hit points.
Round 2: Wiz1: Uses action to reroll save against frightful presence, fails. Mnk: Uses Step of the Wind and action to move far enough to get into melee with dragon. Activates Iron Root Defense (rolls -5 damage against all melee attacks). Wiz2: Uses crow familiar to deliver shocking grasp, misses. Crow stays adjacent to dragon to avoid Attack of Opportunity. Clr: Approaches the dragon, stops at the edge of freezing fog, attacks with lance of faith, hits for 7 damage. Archer: Same as in round 1, makes two attacks, no advantage this time, but both hit for 28 and 10 damage (used martial dice on the first attack). Dwarf: Moves to within melee range, attacks dragon, hits (precicely AC 15) for 14 damage, saves one MDD for parry. Dragon: Fails to recharge breath (rolled a 3). Uses multiattack to make bite and tail attacks. Bites Mnk, hits for 26 damage. Mnk uses his Deflect feat to halve the damage to 13, reduced to a final 8 by Iron Root Defense. Tail slaps dwarf, hits for 7 damage, but Dwarf uses his reaction to parry with 1d6 + skill die for a total of (5+6) 11 damage, thus negates attack.
Comments: Wiz1 still out of the fight, Mnk still has not attacked, Wiz2 missed, and despite all that, the dragon sustained a further 59 damage, and is at -98. The dragon used its tail against the Dwarf, intent on pushing it 20 feet away, which would mean that the Dwarf (moving at 20 feet in armor, 10 effectively in freezing fog) would be unable to attack again next round (would either have to use action and move to get back into melee, or stop out of melee range). Since the parry turned the hit into a miss, the push never happened. Still, the dragon hit on all attacks.
Round 3: Wiz1: Finally makes the save against Frightful Presence, begins to return, but is too far away yet. Mnk: Attacks the dragon, hits for 10 damage, uses Grasp of Stone, dragon fails its saving throw (...). Mnk follows with Flurry of Blows, which auto-hits and deals 7 more, then spends two MDD on Iron Root Defense (-8 all damage).
At this point, the dragon dies (-115 hit points, down to zero hit points).
Comments Overall Overall party resources expended: One fireball and haste (both 3rd-level slots of Wiz1), one prayer (single 3rd-level slot of Clr), one protection from evil (one 1st-level Clr slot), one invisibility (one 2nd-level Wiz2 slot). Wiz2 was low on hit points, would probably have dropped if hit by another breath attack, but he didn't contribute to damage anyway. Even though a combination of failed Frightful Presence saves and attack rolls, as well as choice of wrong actions meant the party dealt below average damage, the dragon still died in three rounds.
The Monk as a class is horribly overpowered and requires a good swing with the nerfbat. Deflect combined with Iron Root Defense is plainly absurd for a guy wearing no armor and carrying no weapons. Basically, Iron Root Defense is absurd on its own - a flat damage resuction against all attacks and effects with no reaction required, when the fighter's parry (a class ability of a class supposedly better than the Monk in armed combat) requires a reaction, hence defends only against a single attack. Someone over at the dev lair needs to get serious and limit Iron Root Defense to a single MDD.
The dragon has unacceptably few options and defenses. Its AC proved barely adequate for lvl5 PCs, obviously is inadequate for lvl8 ones. AC 16 or 17 is more appropriate. An AC of 16 would have made the Dwarf's 14-point hit into a miss. I don't know how much difference that would have made, since in round 3 there were 4 more PCs left to act before the dragon (Wiz2, Clr, Archer, Dwarf), but one can only hope... Breath weapon damage is way too low. I don't think a faster recharge would help, but it really needs to be higher. Maybe a 50% increase would help some (say, 6d6+6), and likewise for the other dragons. DC seems fine.
Obviously, this is just a single test, and against a party 50% more powerful than normal (6 PCs), so statistically it does not carry much significance. However, assuming that the dragon could statistically defeat the group, what are the chances of getting a completely different result on a single test?
The above scenario is a great example of why dragons are currently far too easy. If the dragon had higher hitpoints (I would say double or even triple) then the threat level would increase significantly. But not nearly enough to make a fight rediculous. I'd like to see a scenario run where the dragon had a 200-300% health increase, a +1-3 AC increase and a +50% damage increase. That's a real fight you have on your hands then.
