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We've been playing D&D (4e) for a bit over a year, now, and we only just discovered the penalty to attacking, after running. What is it, -5? Does that seem reasonable? It made sense to us to grant combat advantage (that part, at least, appears in the tables on the GM screen), and we kindof expected a -2 penalty.

A regular movement is (usually) 6 squares. If I run, I can increase that by a measly two squares, but now I cut my hit percentage in half. Or I can go 12 and not attack this turn, and have no penalty (this is important for opportunity attacks).

 Running durig your turn imposes a -5 penalty to attacks. And yes, running in combat is generally a bad idea.

Well, it is only until the start of your next turn, so you can do something like Attack and then Run, and aside from off-turn attacks nothing will take the -5.

Dec 25, 2012 -- 5:51AM, Zathris wrote:

Well, it is only until the start of your next turn, so you can do something like Attack and then Run, and aside from off-turn attacks nothing will take the -5.

This.

My current character is a defender, so it's critical that I get into position, and OA's are a big part of defending. It doesn't do me much good for my enemies to say, "look, he just moved seven squares to get in front of me, so all I have to do is walk past him to the mage." So now the magic items that increase my running speed are now almost useless in combat.

But it's not nerfing my previously-assumed abilities that bothers me, it's that it doesn't seem too realistic. Can anyone make me feel better about this?

Dec 25, 2012 -- 9:26PM, floating_stump wrote:

My current character is a defender, so it's critical that I get into position, and OA's are a big part of defending. It doesn't do me much good for my enemies to say, "look, he just moved seven squares to get in front of me, so all I have to do is walk past him to the mage." So now the magic items that increase my running speed are now almost useless in combat.

But it's not nerfing my previously-assumed abilities that bothers me, it's that it doesn't seem too realistic. Can anyone make me feel better about this?

Instead of just you moving forward, have other people move back?  Or you just stand in the front of the party and take point, so you don't have to move to get between the enemy and the rest of the party?  Or just double-move instead of running?

Yeah...is called teamwork, you can't defend your party if they don't allow themselves to be defended...

so you don't have to move to get between the enemy and the rest of the party?

I go in the door. I walk five squares in. The enemy runs up and attacks me. How many squares are between those enemies and the controller who walks through the door behind me? Not enough. How many squares does our entire team take up? Burst 3.

I want to go in, spread out and engage the enemy. Not go in, stand together and let them engage us.

But I guess we're going to have to learn some new tactics. Double move without running is probably my only option. It doesn't make me happy. So back to my question...

Well, at this point, you seem to be unpleasable, so ... no, we cannot make you feel better about this.

Have a look at the feat Eager Advance - this should solve your issue of positioning at the start of combat.  Depending on your class and build you might be able to pick up an at-will or encounter power that you can use on a charge as well; giving you an effective range of 20 squares on your first turn without losing the ability to attack effectively.  Just watch out that you don't get too far out in front and out of range of healing

Be a Orc or Half-Orc. They get a +2 speed bonus when charging with no drawbacks 

There's also the Fast Runner feat or Fleetrunner Boots that can help you.

My personal favorite of the move-boots is still Boots of Eagerness.  The errata made them a good bit worse, but they are still pretty darned decent.

Dec 25, 2012 -- 10:28PM, Salla wrote:

Well, at this point, you seem to be unpleasable, so ... no, we cannot make you feel better about this.

Thanks, Happy Unicorn.  You offer the helpful and simplistic suggestion that my team and I are doing it all wrong, and when I give you a concrete example of why it doesn't work that way, you call me unpleasable. Maybe you should just add me to your ignore list.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 12:53AM, Litmus wrote:

...giving you an effective range of 20 squares on your first turn without losing the ability to attack effectively.

Funny, I thought I had that.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 3:17AM, Plaguescarred wrote:

Be a Orc or Half-Orc. They get a +2 speed bonus when charging with no drawbacks 

Ooh, can I multi-race? Is that an Epic Tier feat?

Thanks to everyone for the tips. I take it nobody has a problem with the -5 penalty.

If your group has been running it as "using the Run action adds +2 squares of movement, and causes you to grant Combat Advantage. In addition, it imposes a -2 penalty to all attack rolls made until the beginning of your next turn" and has found no problems in game balance... don't feel held to the rules, even the Rule Compendium.

Run it the way you guys want to. House ruling is a long and healthy tradition in D&D. Enjoy.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 6:19PM, floating_stump wrote:

Thanks, Happy Unicorn.  You offer the helpful and simplistic suggestion that my team and I are doing it all wrong, and when I give you a concrete example of why it doesn't work that way, you call me unpleasable.

The thing is, it DOES work that way.  The rules are very clear and unambiguous.  You're just being whiny because you can't get everything you want.

Maybe you should just add me to your ignore list.

Okay.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 6:41PM, DaBugbear wrote:

If your group has been running it as "using the Run action adds +2 squares of movement, and causes you to grant Combat Advantage. In addition, it imposes a -2 penalty to all attack rolls made until the beginning of your next turn" and has found no problems in game balance... don't feel held to the rules, even the Rule Compendium.

Run it the way you guys want to. House ruling is a long and healthy tradition in D&D. Enjoy.

Well said. 

Thanks, I'm going to suggest house ruling it, but our GM doesn't like house rules. We used to occasionally house-rule things that just didn't seem to make sense. This one is borderline, I think.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 6:41PM, DaBugbear wrote:

If your group has been running it as "using the Run action adds +2 squares of movement, and causes you to grant Combat Advantage. In addition, it imposes a -2 penalty to all attack rolls made until the beginning of your next turn" and has found no problems in game balance... don't feel held to the rules, even the Rule Compendium.

Run it the way you guys want to. House ruling is a long and healthy tradition in D&D. Enjoy.

Exactly. Rule 0 (witch doesn't "officially" exist in 4e) states that the DM may create/alter/ignore any rule for the sake of enjoyment and fun of the gaming group. I know it was in first ed, and have heard it was the main rule of the original "chainmail"

Dec 25, 2012 -- 10:23PM, floating_stump wrote:

But I guess we're going to have to learn some new tactics. Double move without running is probably my only option. It doesn't make me happy.

A move & charge will get you as far as a double move.  You get a basic attack, at +1 to hit, no less, and suffer no penalties (other than that the charge action ends your turn, so you can't use a minor after you charge, which might matter to some defenders, like the Warden, for instance).  For a Fighter or an Essentials 'aura' defender, it should work fine.  And there are more than a few powers out there that can be used in place of a basic attack when charging.

If charging doesn't work for you, there are quite a lot of ways to get extra movement or extra move actions.  Assuming your party has a leader, for instance, there are leader powers or features that can help you move faster or more often.  There are feats and items that increase movement or give extra moves.  Your class, as a defender, may have powers that help you with positioning yourself and/or enemies.  Your party's controller may be able to help with that, too, particularly slowing down enemies  or otherwise making it harder for them to get away from you.

Run is a very basic combat option, like Grab or bull-rush, and is /meant/ to be inferior to all those powers, features, feats, items and so forth that boost movement. 

 

It's really tactically disadvantageous to move-charge into a room in order to engage the enemy unless you can engage ALL of the enemy (hallways, cliffs, etc.) because it's a simple thing to just walk around the area you threaten in most cases (rooms, fields, forests, caverns ...) And if you're 12 squares away from your party, you're going to either have to move-charge to get back to them - which provokes from the guy you previously engaged, or shift-move - which leaves you unable to affect anything for another round.

Aside from an Archer or Wizard, most of the party should be within a burst 3, in fact a burst 2 is more preferable, so that you can assist each other against the same target, it's called Focus Firing, and it's the absolute primary tactic in any battle where the goal is "kill them before they kill you". Trying to spread the party beyond a burst 3 is tactically shooting yourself in the foot unless your entire party is supremely optimized, bursts are not as common as single target attacks, and when they do occur they are typically not more than a burst 2, they also do less damage than single target attacks.

So yeah, running to spread out the party is a good way to not win fights.

Dec 25, 2012 -- 10:23PM, floating_stump wrote:

so you don't have to move to get between the enemy and the rest of the party?

I go in the door. I walk five squares in. The enemy runs up and attacks me. How many squares are between those enemies and the controller who walks through the door behind me? Not enough. How many squares does our entire team take up? Burst 3.

I want to go in, spread out and engage the enemy. Not go in, stand together and let them engage us.

But I guess we're going to have to learn some new tactics. Double move without running is probably my only option. It doesn't make me happy. So back to my question...

You go in the door.  You go one square in and ready.  You are now occupying a choke point and the enemies can't get past you.  Your ranged allies attack from behind you without penalty.

Dec 31, 2012 -- 2:15AM, thespaceinvader wrote:

Dec 25, 2012 -- 10:23PM, floating_stump wrote:

so you don't have to move to get between the enemy and the rest of the party?

I go in the door. I walk five squares in. The enemy runs up and attacks me. How many squares are between those enemies and the controller who walks through the door behind me? Not enough. How many squares does our entire team take up? Burst 3.

I want to go in, spread out and engage the enemy. Not go in, stand together and let them engage us.

But I guess we're going to have to learn some new tactics. Double move without running is probably my only option. It doesn't make me happy. So back to my question...

You go in the door.  You go one square in and ready.  You are now occupying a choke point and the enemies can't get past you.  Your ranged allies attack from behind you without penalty.

You go in the door, take a couple steps in and CaGI.  Your look at your controller and smile as he blasts an entire room with Silent Malediction/Sleep.

Next encounter. 

I've been thinking about this for a while, trying to reconcile the advice with my experiences.

So we should not advance into the room. Defenders walk in, archer peeks through the door, and makes the enemies head for cover. But then we have to go in after them and they're behind cover. And while we're standing at the entrance, they're spread out and we're bunched up. And we no longer have surprise. Either that, or they rush us - but that's not going to happen very often.

And that only works when we have recon and know what's in there. Either way, I can think of several recent encounters that involved going through a door or doorway, and we could never do anything from beyond the threshold.

Our GM is fond of two things - area attacks, and hitting the weakest member of the party. If I (the defender) stand next to the healer, the monster will blast/burst us both or go around me to attack him (or just attack him from next to me, since I probably haven't marked it yet). Or the monster with reach will reach past two fighers to attack the controller. A recent combat, we had three fighters and a healer. Six enemies. Whenever an enemy could get away from the fighters, it did so, and went for the healer. No ganging up on the striker, who was dealing lots of damage. No ganging up on the defender, who was not dealing much damage. They disengaged to deal with the guy who was standing back. And when we reconverged on the healer to defend him, they still always attacked him. I'm sure the GM would say the monsters are smart enough to know that the guy skulking in the back waving his hands is both dangerous and easily killed. Hmm, this wasn't supposed to be a rant...

As a battlemind, it's my job to keep some of the enemies away from the rest of the party, so they can focus on killing the others first (focus firing is definitely the plan). I'm pretty effective at this, when the numbers are right. Like, "I'm going to keep the dragon occupied. You take care of the trogs."

But you've got me thinking about it. I'll see if we can adjust our tactics in this direction, and we'll see what happens.