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Dec 23, 2012 -- 5:33PM, AaronOfBarbaria wrote:

Dec 23, 2012 -- 3:20PM, mellored wrote:

Dead levels leave you feel like you've worked for nothing.

I do not understand this sentiment. Please, anyone who thinks they can, explain it to me.

To help, I will give my own view - playing the game is fun. By playing the game, I mean the in-and-out procedure of every session as a whole... you adventure, crazy stuff happens, you fight to survive and accomplish your goal, and you move on repeating that process (more or less) for the entire campaign until the story is finished.

Why does gaining a level have to include some intersting choice or large mechanical benefit other than HP and maybe an attack bonus in order to be fun? Isn't the "point" of the game playing out the adventures and the role of your character?

I guess I just see it as playing a level 3 character is fun because the adventure creates lots of opportunities for fun, playing a level 4 character is fun because the adventure creates lots of opportunities for fun... but the tiny (in the scope of the campaign) moment when we stop playing and do the book-keeping of increasing from level 3 to level 4... why does that have to involve certain stuff in order to be fun? Isn't it actually a brief distraction from the fun? That's what I think of it as, especially when it takes more than a minute to do because you have to make (or have pre-planned) a choice with lasting effects on your character.

Part of it comes from feeling left out.  Since this is the holidays, let's use a Christmas example.  The party rushes downstairs on Christmas morning, with bleary but eager eyes, excited to see what new toys they have toi play with.  The wizard gets an x-box, the cleric gets mountain bike, the rogue gets a skateboard, and the fighter gets that pair of socks his parents have been saying that he needs.
A dead level is socks for Christmas.

Dec 23, 2012 -- 5:18PM, chaosfang wrote:

If you don't mind not getting new stuff when you level, surely you don't mind not leveling, do you?

For those who do want levels to actually matter, they're the ones who get gimped out of this "dead levels" deal.

Levels matter even when all you get is more Hit Points - at least that is my view, and I don't mind if HP is all I get... as for not leveling... I wouldn't mind so long as the challenges stayed relevant to my level rather than accelerating while I get left weaker and weaker in relation.

The idea that a level is "dead' just because it has less numerous things that you gain than other levels... where does that even come from? I don't really follow the logic behind it... it seems way too all-or-nothing in application where there is some arbitrary threshold below which all levels are "Dead" no matter what they actually do for your character.

...and the fact that I have seen someone (can't quite remember who) declare that a level is "dead" even when you gain HP, attack bonus, and another martial damage die because "all of those are boring," actually kind of scares me - I feel like maybe I'm just not cut out for "new school" games when I see people so tweaked on crunch that it seems like they aren't even playing the game for the play (all that stuff that happens during a level) but just for the ding (the moment when you crunch some new numbers and jot down a new 'thing').

Dec 23, 2012 -- 5:33PM, AaronOfBarbaria wrote:

Dec 23, 2012 -- 3:20PM, mellored wrote:

Dead levels leave you feel like you've worked for nothing.

I do not understand this sentiment. Please, anyone who thinks they can, explain it to me.

To help, I will give my own view - playing the game is fun. By playing the game, I mean the in-and-out procedure of every session as a whole... you adventure, crazy stuff happens, you fight to survive and accomplish your goal, and you move on repeating that process (more or less) for the entire campaign until the story is finished.

Why does gaining a level have to include some intersting choice or large mechanical benefit other than HP and maybe an attack bonus in order to be fun? Isn't the "point" of the game playing out the adventures and the role of your character?

I guess I just see it as playing a level 3 character is fun because the adventure creates lots of opportunities for fun, playing a level 4 character is fun because the adventure creates lots of opportunities for fun... but the tiny (in the scope of the campaign) moment when we stop playing and do the book-keeping of increasing from level 3 to level 4... why does that have to involve certain stuff in order to be fun? Isn't it actually a brief distraction from the fun? That's what I think of it as, especially when it takes more than a minute to do because you have to make (or have pre-planned) a choice with lasting effects on your character.

Actually, I think you answered your own question (see bolded text).  If the only difference between level 3 and level 4 is 4-16 HP and nothing more...

1. There is virtually no new opportunity made for fun, except maybe "you can now do the exact same thing, but with more HP to keep yourself from dying!"
2. You are still stopping your play in order to do bookkeeping anyway

Dec 23, 2012 -- 5:47PM, Orzel wrote:

It's really about how dead the level is.

Each level you something.

A bad dead level gives you something you barely care about.

Check out the level 5 to level 6 increase as a fighter.  All you get is more HPs.

Dec 23, 2012 -- 5:43PM, Saelorn wrote:

If you don't like getting new stuff, then why does it really matter if you gain a level or not?

Not needing something new every level to be satisfied most certainly does not equate to not liking new stuff.

I love to play fighters, and I enjoy it when they pick up a new maneuver, more attack bonus, and more martial damage dice/bonus - but I don't need anything more than some HP for me to enjoy having gained a level.

Dec 23, 2012 -- 5:43PM, Saelorn wrote:

Why not just stay level 4 or 6 or whatever, and play out the whole story that way?

If the story is only going to involve threats that can be handled effectively by a party of 4-8 characters of 4th or 6th level, I would do exactly that... most stories that happen at my table, however, tend to involve some very powerful beings that would require far to many characters of 4th or 6th level to handle, so we level up and get the things that were preventing 4-8 characters from handling the situation without extra help (namely hit points with which to survive the potent enemy's attacks long enough to fight back).