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5 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 3:12PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Nov 17, 2012
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We role-play. "Dead levels" seem to be the assumption that every class should receive something new at every level. I'm not sure I agree with that. At least you're getting one level closer to gaining a new ability. What do you mean by "dead levels" anyhow? How could it be improved within the mechanics of the playtest as presented? Without those conditions?
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5 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 3:20PM
#2
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Dead levels leave you feel like you've worked for nothing.
That said, I agree it's not that importaint. It's polish you put on. Something to be done after the construction is complete.
guides
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my builds
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 3:26PM
#3
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Date Joined:
May 17, 2009
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We role-play.
Hey, that's cool. Thanks for the insinuation that we don't. Real classy.
But no amount of roleplaying harder excuses bad mechanics.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool. | Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner | |
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 3:31PM
#4
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We role-play.
Hey, that's cool. Thanks for the insinuation that we don't. Real classy.
But no amount of roleplaying harder excuses bad mechanics.
All of this.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 3:33PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2008
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We role-play.
Hey, that's cool. Thanks for the insinuation that we don't. Real classy.
But no amount of roleplaying harder excuses bad mechanics.
Just another continuation of the fighters can't have nice stuff in my opinion- of course dead levels don't matter for the fighter (or rogue or whatever martial character this applies to) because they can't have nice stuff anyway.
I think wizards shouldn't be able to learn any new spells or get additional spell slots at all on 50% of their levels. After all they can roleplay studying for those levels.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 5:04PM
#6
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We role-play. "Dead levels" seem to be the assumption that every class should receive something new at every level. I'm not sure I agree with that. At least you're getting one level closer to gaining a new ability. What do you mean by "dead levels" anyhow? How could it be improved within the mechanics of the playtest as presented? Without those conditions?
Honest question: Why shouldn't you gain something new at each level? If you aren't gaining something new upon attaining a new level, why not simply fold it into the previous level and require 2x as much experience to get through that level?
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 5:16PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2012
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i dont get why people keep complaining about dead levels. sure you dont get new abilities but you still get stronger...
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5 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 5:18PM
#8
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If you don't mind not getting new stuff when you level, surely you don't mind not leveling, do you?
For those who do want levels to actually matter, they're the ones who get gimped out of this "dead levels" deal.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 5:21PM
#9
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i dont get why people keep complaining about dead levels. sure you dont get new abilities but you still get stronger...
Barely. Look at levels 5 & 6 for the fighter in the current packet. Levelling up from 5 to 6 gives you no weapon attack bonus, no additional MDD, no MDB, and no class features. All you get is roughly 8-10 hps (on average). By contrast, the wizard never has a dead level because they always learn new spells with each level.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 5:33PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2007
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Dead levels leave you feel like you've worked for nothing.
I do not understand this sentiment. Please, anyone who thinks they can, explain it to me.
To help, I will give my own view - playing the game is fun. By playing the game, I mean the in-and-out procedure of every session as a whole... you adventure, crazy stuff happens, you fight to survive and accomplish your goal, and you move on repeating that process (more or less) for the entire campaign until the story is finished.
Why does gaining a level have to include some intersting choice or large mechanical benefit other than HP and maybe an attack bonus in order to be fun? Isn't the "point" of the game playing out the adventures and the role of your character?
I guess I just see it as playing a level 3 character is fun because the adventure creates lots of opportunities for fun, playing a level 4 character is fun because the adventure creates lots of opportunities for fun... but the tiny (in the scope of the campaign) moment when we stop playing and do the book-keeping of increasing from level 3 to level 4... why does that have to involve certain stuff in order to be fun? Isn't it actually a brief distraction from the fun? That's what I think of it as, especially when it takes more than a minute to do because you have to make (or have pre-planned) a choice with lasting effects on your character.
Careful, man. That much logic might be illegal on the internet. - Salla
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