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When a player in my case a mage uses a ranged ability to a monster (goblin) that is adjacent to the mage does this monster gets an opportunity attack ? or because the mage is targeting the goblin it cant get an opportunity attack ? Does it matter if the monster (goblin) gaining the opportunity attack is the target that the mage uses the ranged attack ? or it doesnt matter ?

the goblin gets an AoO
the wizard used a ranged attack in melee 

^Is correct.

Also tell the Wizard to take Staff Expertise.

The monster gets the attack, because the OA interupts the trigger (the mage's range attack), and takes place before the before the mage's attack finishes.  (Rules Compendium pg #196).   The attack target doesn't matter, the mage's power's keyword (range, as opposed to melee, blast or close burst) does.  

This is why many wizards take the staff expertise feat.

And yes, this means that if the monster kills the PC with his opportunity attack, then the triggering attack doesn't go off and the monster doesn't get attacked.

Same thing can happen when a monster attacks a PC and grants the PC an OA.

Ranged and Area attacks generally provoke opportunity attacks, Melee and Close do not.     

Dec 22, 2012 -- 5:47PM, Emplove wrote:

Does it matter if the monster (goblin) gaining the opportunity attack is the target that the mage uses the ranged attack ? or it doesnt matter ?

No it doesn't matter if the creature taking an OA is included in the attack or not.

What matters is if the creature can take Opportunity Actions when one is triggered.


Trigger: An enemy you can see either leaves a square adjacent to you or uses a Ranged or Area Power while adjacent to you 

Well thank you all for your reply. The dissagreement with the group was if the monster gets his OA or not cause the mage was targeting it with his ranged ability and i couldnt find something to say about targeted monsters and OA on compedium. Thanks for explaining it to me.

one more question: When a monster (Goblin Archer) has an opportunity attack we assume he uses his Short Sword (standard, at-will) Weapon +6 vs AC; 1d6+2 to hit ? OR we need to assume he has his Shortbow (standard, at-will) Weapon Ranged 15/30; +6 vs AC; 1d8+2 Equipped and he needs to spend a minor action to put the Shortbow in his back and then need to spend one more minor action to equip his Short Sword so he cant use 2 minor action so he cant do an opportunity attack ? Can someone explain to me ?

Dec 23, 2012 -- 10:37AM, Emplove wrote:

one more question: When a monster (Goblin Archer) has an opportunity attack we assume he uses his Short Sword (standard, at-will) Weapon +6 vs AC; 1d6+2 to hit ? OR we need to assume he has his Shortbow (standard, at-will) Weapon Ranged 15/30; +6 vs AC; 1d8+2 Equipped and he needs to spend a minor action to put the Shortbow in his back and then need to spend one more minor action to equip his Short Sword so he cant use 2 minor action so he cant do an opportunity attack ? Can someone explain to me ?

Monsters don't generally have to sweat weapon-swapping; that's a PC thing.  If you *want* to fuss with it, I suppose you can, but in general, you just have the monster swing the sword regardless of the last action it took.

Dec 23, 2012 -- 10:37AM, Emplove wrote:

one more question: When a monster (Goblin Archer) has an opportunity attack we assume he uses his Short Sword (standard, at-will) Weapon +6 vs AC; 1d6+2 to hit ? OR we need to assume he has his Shortbow (standard, at-will) Weapon Ranged 15/30; +6 vs AC; 1d8+2 Equipped and he needs to spend a minor action to put the Shortbow in his back and then need to spend one more minor action to equip his Short Sword so he cant use 2 minor action so he cant do an opportunity attack ? Can someone explain to me ?

 minor to put away bow(or a free action to just drop it)
convert move action to minor action(skip if the creature used a free action)
minor to pull out sword
standard to attack 
end turn

im not sure what you mean by cant do an opp attack but none of the actions provoke or keep the creature from getting an opp if someone else provokes.

Dec 23, 2012 -- 10:37AM, Emplove wrote:

Can someone explain to me ?

If the Goblin Archer is wielding a shortbow when an enemy provoke an Opportunity Attack, it must use it as an improvised melee weapon or make an unarmed attack since you can't use a ranged weapon to make weapon attack otherwise. As Salla said, for simplicity's sake just use the same attack and damage roll as its melee basic attack power represented by the following icon:  

Dec 23, 2012 -- 12:04PM, Plaguescarred wrote:

Dec 23, 2012 -- 10:37AM, Emplove wrote:

Can someone explain to me ?

If the Goblin Archer is wielding a shortbow when an enemy provoke an Opportunity Attack, it must use it as an improvised melee weapon or make an unarmed attack since you can't use a ranged weapon to make weapon attack otherwise. As Salla said, for simplicity's sake just use the same attack and damage roll as its melee basic attack power represented by the following icon:  

Plaguescarred is correct.  And the reason the goblin can't swap weapons is because it would take at least a minor action to do so and the goblin can't take minor actions since it's not his turn. If the gobin had his bow out he could still make a Basic Melee Attack but it has to be with either the bow as an improvised melee weapon or with no weapon at all (unarmed).

Dec 23, 2012 -- 1:38PM, RedSiegfried wrote:

Dec 23, 2012 -- 12:04PM, Plaguescarred wrote:

Dec 23, 2012 -- 10:37AM, Emplove wrote:

Can someone explain to me ?

If the Goblin Archer is wielding a shortbow when an enemy provoke an Opportunity Attack, it must use it as an improvised melee weapon or make an unarmed attack since you can't use a ranged weapon to make weapon attack otherwise. As Salla said, for simplicity's sake just use the same attack and damage roll as its melee basic attack power represented by the following icon:  

Plaguescarred is correct.  And the reason the goblin can't swap weapons is because it would take at least a minor action to do so and the goblin can't take minor actions since it's not his turn. If the gobin had his bow out he could still make a Basic Melee Attack but it has to be with either the bow as an improvised melee weapon or with no weapon at all (unarmed).

Or reflavor his short sword attack as smacking you upside the head with his bow.

Dec 23, 2012 -- 12:04PM, Plaguescarred wrote:

Dec 23, 2012 -- 10:37AM, Emplove wrote:

Can someone explain to me ?

If the Goblin Archer is wielding a shortbow when an enemy provoke an Opportunity Attack, it must use it as an improvised melee weapon or make an unarmed attack since you can't use a ranged weapon to make weapon attack otherwise. As Salla said, for simplicity's sake just use the same attack and damage roll as its melee basic attack power represented by the following icon:  

Except that is rubbish, because the name of the power is just fluff. That would only be the case if the required weapon was named in the power.

For an example of this see Tuthak the Pummeler: 

 Barbed Net  At-Will

Requirement: Tuthak must be wielding a barbed net.

Attack: Ranged 5 (one creature); +9 vs. Reflex

Hit: The target is restrained (save ends).

    Each Failed Saving Throw: The target takes 1d6 + 2 damage.

However of the 1000s of the creatures in 4e, only c. 20 actually have this restriction. 

 

The power above doesn't even have the weapon keyword that identify a power that is used with a weapon

In the case of monster power's name that correspond to a weapon found in his or her equipment, (ex. shortbow, javelin, handaxe etc..) its generally because the power is used with said weapon if the power has the weapon keyword and is of the a type corresponding (melee or ranged).

That's because monsters don't actually use weapons, all that is fluff around the game mechanics.

Hence why the 1 or 2 disarming abilities don't function in any meaningful way on most monsters (except the 20 odd mentioned above). 

Dec 23, 2012 -- 5:33PM, Fardiz wrote:

That's because monsters don't actually use weapons, all that is fluff around the game mechanics.

The Compendium return 2653 hits for weapon in the creatures section, mostly for the weapon keyword, which identify a power used with a weapon. (RC 113)

Many humanoid monsters use weapons in fact, the Dwarf Warrior use a warhammer and a crossbow for exemple.

But we can't assume that the monster weapon is anything like the PC weapon, due to all the different damage expressions. For all we know, the monster is using a weapon that can fire arrows like a shortbow but can also be used to stab like a shortsword.

The long and short of it: there is no need to waste monster actions swapping weapons, it is not required and they can always use all their powers, unless specifically required by the power. 

While excepton exist, Monsters weapon attacks generally use the same [W] and Range/Reach as PC. Even properties like High Crit is usually found in Scimitar powers. Take the Human Guard for exemple:

His Halberd's Reach 2 and use d10 and his Crossbow's Range is 15/30 and use d8.

 Halberd (standard, at-will)  Weapon
Reach 2; +10 vs AC; 1d10+3 damage, and the target is marked until the end of the human guard’s next turn.
 Crossbow (standard, at-will)  Weapon
Ranged 15/30; +9 vs AC; 1d8+2 damage.

Equipment: chainmail, crossbow, crossbow bolts (20), halberd. 

Hmmm ... rethinking this, I would have to honestly say that RAW, no, the monster doesn't actually NEED the named weapon to make his attack, but since I can't recall seeing any monster attack powers that do W damage, the damage is going to be whatever the power says regardless of the weapon wielded.  And unarmed and improvised are weapons, so they fulfill the conditions for the attack power but still do the same static damage.

But I'm still going to require my monsters to actually have the weapon in hand their attack power implies.  Cause if I had archers switching back and forth between bow and sword freely my other players would pounce on me. 

I mean, as a Paladin I can Holy Strike someone by punching them, I just do less damage than if I had used my longsword because the attack does 1(W) damage.  For most monsters, it's static damage so there you go, I guess. 

I guess you could call this another instance of "monsters work different than PCs."

A Human Guards Halberd's deals 1d10+3. The d10 is the [W]. Like PC monsters may deal multiple [W] and their stats 1d10+3 is simply the conversion value for convenience, like the one appearing at the top of a PC's Attack card in the CB. Monsters design don't always follow PCs rules but regarding weapons attack, they are generally pretty similar.

If the Human Guard has his Halberd in hands and is dazed, he cannot make a Crossbow attack because he is not wielding the right weapon for exemple.

Dec 24, 2012 -- 9:22AM, Plaguescarred wrote:

If the Human Guard has his Halberd in hands and is dazed, he cannot make a Crossbow attack because he is not wielding the right weapon for exemple.

Technically, nothing says he HAS to use the crossbow to make the Crossbow attack.  It's a Weapon attack, however, so he needs to use a weapon.  That could be anything, including his crossbow, his halberd, a rock, a chair, or his fists (Improvised Weapons), and the damage is still 1d8+2 and the range is still 15/30, since it's doesn't say "1(W)+2" for damage or "Ranged Weapon" for the range.

Yeah, this could be kinda silly.  How does the Human Guard use his halberd to make a Crossbow attack?  The answer is that monsters have different rules, I guess.  He doesn't need to swap his weapon out because the power doesn't require a specific weapon to work. 

That having been said, as a DM, I would still make him spend the appropriate action to swap weapons when needed, just because my players would question it otherwise and I like to give them benefit of the doubt.

When asked, just say every monster has an advanced version of the quickdraw feat, afterall they have used these weapons all their lives, unlike PCs.

Dec 24, 2012 -- 9:35AM, RedSiegfried wrote:

It's a Weapon attack, however, so he needs to use a weapon.  That could be anything, including his crossbow, his halberd, a rock, a chair, or his fists (Improvised Weapons), and the damage is still 1d8+2 and the range is still 15/30

Using the Crossbow given range when not attacking with one would be unfair. When a power is called Crossbow, its intended to use one :P. They simply didn't put in every monster's weapon attacks a requirement that it needed the weapon shown in the title. They only use it for others one when the name differ. and for simplicty's sake all values are given so a DM doesn't have to check a weapon's Range. To take the Human Guard again, his other melee power Powerful Strike does require a Halberd since the name doesn't appear in the title. 

 Powerful Strike (standard; requires halberd, recharge )  Weapon
reach 2; +10 vs AC; 1d10+7 damage, and the target is knocked prone.

Similarly, when a Race doesn't appear in a monster's name they generally include the keyword.. ex. Drow Assassin has no Drow Keyword while Drizzt Do'Urden has one. While it lack the Keyword, the Drow Assassin is still supposed to be a Drow. 

While its RAW since monster powers don't use [W] and Ranged Weapon for damage and range but their value instead, it would make weapons totally irrevelant in a monsters statblock then unless it has some requirements.

While its RAW since monster powers don't use [W] and Ranged Weapon for damage and range but their value instead, it would make weapons totally irrevelant in a monsters statblock then unless it has some requirements.

Well done, you finally get it! 

Dec 24, 2012 -- 12:06PM, Fardiz wrote:

While its RAW since monster powers don't use [W] and Ranged Weapon for damage and range but their value instead, it would make weapons totally irrevelant in a monsters statblock then unless it has some requirements.

Well done, you finally get it! 

Agreed.  That's the RAW but when I DM I always try to remember to make the monster spend an action to swap weapons.  It's really only fair.

I don't think drawing an AOO allows the monster to spend multiple actions--only an immediate action to attack. If you make your monsters spend actions to swap weapons instead of just letting it use its MBA, you basically are saying those monsters never get to take OAs and players can run around them in circles without shifting or whatever any time they want.

Dec 25, 2012 -- 7:56AM, RedSiegfried wrote:

[Agreed.  That's the RAW but when I DM I always try to remember to make the monster spend an action to swap weapons.  It's really only fair.

Especially when RAI is clear.

Technical RAW is often absurd and better not followed. Even thought RAW you can't fall while Prone i don't think anyone adjucate it this way. Same thing here. 

So RAI, monsters never get to use their OA, unless they are willing to sacrifice minors every round? I think you need to open your eyes.

There is nothing absurd about this, this is just sensible. 

Dec 25, 2012 -- 12:24PM, Fardiz wrote:

So RAI, monsters never get to use their OA, unless they are willing to sacrifice minors every round? I think you need to open your eyes.

There is nothing absurd about this, this is just sensible. 

Indeed.

RAI is that monsters are easier to operate than PCs, because the DM has several to juggle and each player only has one PC.  Fussing over which weapon a monster has in hand is simply not worth the effort.

Unless, of course, your players are paying attention to who is using a longsword and who swapped to a crossbow when they choose paths in regards to OAs.

Monsters aren't exempt from the rules.  Their statblocks are largely condensed, and don't include an equipment list, but most monsters still only get two hands and if their weapon can't be used for the attack, then they can't do the attack.

Just because it's a power in a monster statblock, that doesn't mean you can use it.  The vast majority of monster movement powers, for example, stop working if conditions change, such as the monster being Immobilized.  The same logic applies for weapons. 

They are also subject to the rules for drawing and stowing items, the same as everything else.

As far as RAI?  No, I don't believe artillery are intended to have their melee basic attack available at all times.  Being up in an artillery's face is supposed to be bad for them.  That's the point of being artillery.

There's a difference between saying "the rules don't tell us how to resolve it" and "you should ignore it because it's not important."  I completely disagree with Salla, it is worth the effort, because doing things like not letting them make a melee attack when it had a crossbow out on its turn and didn't spend the action required to stow it and draw another weapon makes the monsters more a part of the world, rather than just a collection of numbers impeding the progress of the story.

Except no monster powers have the "ranged weapon" keywords and so don't need to be used with a ranged weapon, even if the name of the power is "crossbow".

Monsters don't use weapons for their powers because their powers do not have weapon type  keywords. Many of them have the "weapon" keyword, but that only means they have to be done with a weapon (and unarmed is a perfectly valid weapon), so the type of weapon is irrelevent.

As you say, look at the rules.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 2:43PM, Mand12 wrote:

Their statblocks are largely condensed, and don't include an equipment list

Monsters that have equipment have an equipment list in their statblock.

FWIW The rules even say that If a character gains a monster's equipment, he or she can use it as normal gear and does not gain the powers that a monster uses through a piece of equipment.

MV 11 Equipment: A monster's "Equipment" entry notes important items a monster is carrying. A monster might carry equipment that is not noted here. Equipment that is unimportant to a monster is left for the Dungeon Master to decide. If a character gains a monster's equipment, he or she can use it as normal gear. A character does not gain the powers that a monster uses through a piece of equipment. A piece of equipment that player characters use does not necessarily have the same properties for monsters. For example, a greataxe has the high crit property, but a monster using the item does not benefit from the property unless otherwise noted in its statistics.

That quotation certainly suggests that monsters do indeed use their powers through their equipment, when present, which would tend to invalidate the "you don't need a ranged weapon to make a ranged attack if you're a monster" position. It's still rather tenuous, though.

That has nothing to do with monsters using the weapon, it just says that PCs can. It even specifically says that the mechanical function of the weapons has nothing to do with the monster powers.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 4:17PM, Fardiz wrote:

Except no monster powers have the "ranged weapon" keywords and so don't need to be used with a ranged weapon, even if the name of the power is "crossbow".

I addressed that specifically.

As a productive member of the charOP boards you should appreciate the separation between fluff and crunch.

There's a difference between saying "the rules don't tell us how to resolve it" and "you should ignore it because it's not important."

Correct.

However the rules are perfectly clear in this case. However the fact that it is not important (which it isn't) is not important. I can agree there.

I find it important if disarming enemies has no bearing at all. 

Care to name all the powers that disarm an enemy?

Fighter e17 exorcism of steel forces them to drop an item they are holding. What effect this has is completely undefined. You don't even get to choose the item.

After a quick search of "disarm" and "drop" in the compendium, this is the only power that even comes close.

I wasn't talking about a power, i was talking about disarming an enemy in a general sense when you make one prisoner for exemple...

You are mixing up in-combat mechanics with out-of-combat fluff.

I think you are the one mixing up things bro, i made no reference to in or out of combat mechanic whatsoever. 

But if you want powers, there's the Fighter power Exorcism of Steel,  Jarlaxle Baenre's power Flashy Disarm and Shadar-kai Weaponmaster's power Disarming Strike. They are far less likely to happen than disarming foes subdued after combat though.

You said taking people prisoner, there are no rules for doing that in-combat.

You can also disarm an Helpless creature with the Pick-up An Item action. (RC 246)

When a monster does it to a PC there is no issue, it is rules defined.

The only way a PC can do it to a monster is via one power (which is rather badly worded) and through helplessness which provides a "disarmed" status, that actually has no effect on monster statistics. Though usually at the point a monster is helpless you are better off just CdGing them and then wrapping up the combat.