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6 months ago ::
Jan 06, 2013 - 8:21AM
#71
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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I am able to swim, in general.
Right now, I am sitting at my computer, yet I am still able to swim.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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6 months ago ::
Jan 06, 2013 - 2:59PM
#72
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"You must be able to see and hear the Warlord." is the only qualifier for the ability. Whether he's actively making noise does not matter.
I totally agree. However, if he cannot make a noise, then you cannot hear him. It's not that you don't hear him - you cannot. And that is the qualifier on the ability.
If the warlord is invisible you dont say "If he was visible I would be able to see him, and so the feature works." The feature requires you to be able to see the warlord here and now. What might happen if he was other than he is (i.e. invisible) is irrelevant.
Similarly, if the warlord cannot be heard, you can't say "If he could make a noise then I would be able to hear him". If he could make a noise, then he wouldn't be this warlord, because this warlord cannot make a noise. The qualifier is "can ... hear you". It says nothing about a hypothetical "you" that could make a noise. The feature requires you to be able to hear the warlord here and now. If he is unable to make a noise now you cannot hear him.
PLEASE NOTE: I am not saying "if he is not making a noise right now". I am saying "if he is unable to make a noise right now."
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6 months ago ::
Jan 06, 2013 - 2:59PM
#73
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I am able to swim, in general.
Right now, I am sitting at my computer, yet I am still able to swim.
Yet if you were petrified right now, then you would not be able to swim.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 06, 2013 - 3:45PM
#74
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2010
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Yes if sound waves were not able to pass between the warlord and your PC then you would not be able to hear him.
But being petrified does not make you unable to make a sound, in fact if you would need some kind of "silenced" condition, which doesn't exist.
A free action is required to speak but nothing except death stops you from making sounds.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 06, 2013 - 3:51PM
#75
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Can you quote your source on this? I would have thought "totally incapacitated" in the defintion of Unconcious (and hence in the definition of Petrified) would be more than enough to mean that you could not make sounds.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 06, 2013 - 4:17PM
#76
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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nothing except death stops you from making sounds.
And even then, some people can still produce sound after they're dead and thus be heard. 
Can dead people really fart?
Yes. Every dead body releases the gas and liquids etc from the body. Not all the time but most dead bodies leak urine and feces. This is caused by the lack of muscle control. Though every dead body releases gas. Though this usually happens quite some time after the persons death. Source(s): biology major
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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6 months ago ::
Jan 06, 2013 - 5:15PM
#77
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Date Joined:
Feb 23, 2012
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I walk over to the now petrified warlord and push him over. BANG!! Congradulations, he just made a sound you heard. You get the bonus.
The "totally incompacitated" effect is not effecting YOU. Even though the warlord does not make a sound, YOU can still hear the warlord. If YOU were incompacitated or defeaned then YOU would not get the bonus.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 06, 2013 - 6:19PM
#78
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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Your example is a good example of why the bonus gets applied.
"DM: You can hear him, you get the bonus
Player: But you said we couldn't hear him?
DM: He can't talk, if he could talk while turned to stone you would be able to hear him. The problem is he can't talk while being stone. Warlord do you have any telepathic way of communicating? No? Well, he can't talk, but you can still hear him. You weren't turned to stone, he was."
Edit: Now if, rather than being turned to stone, he was trapped in a stone box and thus didn't have LoS or LoE to you (and you couldn't hear him regardless of the fact that he was making noise) then you wouldn't get the bonus.
You miss the point.
No, I got the point. Your point was just wrong so I changed it to reflect the rules.
The power does exactly what it says it does. In the scenario above, Kresta wants to listen to the petrified warlord, rolls a perception check and asks, "Can I hear him?" The DM says "No you can't hear him." Since the feature requires an "ally who can ... hear you", that is all it takes for the feature to fail.
My point is that the DM shouldn't say "You can't hear him" because that is incorrect. He should say "He doesn't make any sound". The absence of sound does not make you unable to hear. You still hear, but there is nothing to be heard.
Anything else, such as:
"He can't talk, if he could talk while turned to stone you would be able to hear him."
is just adding to the rules, and as you say, in 4E you can't do that.
Which would still not effect their ability of anyone else to see or hear him.
Nothing in the rule makes any distinction between why you cant hear him. If you cant hear him because he cant make a sound or you cant hear him because he is in a sound-proof box or you cant hear him because you are deafened, you dont get the benefit. Same as for sight. If you cant see him:
- because he is invisible
- because you dont have line of sight
- because you are blinded
You are correct. The players are still able to hear the warlord stuck in the box, however a different issue is in play here. That issue is that the warlord no longer has LoE to anyone else in the party (and they have no LoS to him most likely). Anything that made a box of something that would break this effect would have to specifically state to the contrary (which petrified does not) in order to function the way you want it to.
The visibility part is two fold though. Invisible specifically says he cannot be seen. Not having LoS means he cannot be seen and the blinded effect says specifically you cannot see. So all of those are specific rules reasons to not get the benefit. The key here is all of them are based on the ally not the warlord. So, if as an example, the warlord was in pitch darkness and one ally had darkvision and the other didn't. The ally with darkvision would get the bonus and the one without would not. If an ally had truesight he would still get the bonus if the warlord was invisible regardless of the fact that he is invisible.
Is the DM correct to say "you can't hear him"?
No. The DM would be correct to say "you hear that he is not making any noise"
A creature that is petrified/unconcious is "incapacitated totally" and "unable to take actions". Nothing in the rules adds "but you are still able to hear him". That would be making up things that are not there.
Nothing about being unconscious / dead / etc makes you invisible or silent. If someone killed you with fire, you might be on fire and be very easily seen and heard (and smelled). Unless of course you were shot three times with a Zat Nik Tel.
"You must be able to see and hear the Warlord." is the only qualifier for the ability. Whether he's actively making noise does not matter.
I totally agree. However, if he cannot make a noise, then you cannot hear him. It's not that you don't hear him - you cannot. And that is the qualifier on the ability.
Except that you can hear him. He just isn't making any noise. Nothing is effecting your ability to hear.
If the warlord is invisible you dont say "If he was visible I would be able to see him, and so the feature works."
You are right, but that is because sight is very clearly defined. If he broke Line of Hearing and LoH was something that existed in the game, then this would work. As it doesn't exist you are comparing apples to oranges.
The feature requires you to be able to see the warlord here and now. What might happen if he was other than he is (i.e. invisible) is irrelevant.
Actually as long as you have LoS and LoE to the warlord, it is the warlord that is irrelevant. Only the character whose initiative is being determined matters at all here.
Similarly, if the warlord cannot be heard, you can't say "If he could make a noise then I would be able to hear him".
You are not deafened when there is no noise. You are still able to perceive.
PLEASE NOTE: I am not saying "if he is not making a noise right now". I am saying "if he is unable to make a noise right now."
PLEASE NOTE: Whether or not he has the ability to make noise is entirely irrelevant to anyone's ability to hear him. People in silent movies cannot make noises, people in the theater are not deafened.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 07, 2013 - 12:38AM
#79
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2010
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nothing except death stops you from making sounds.
And even then, some people can still produce sound after they're dead and thus be heard.
Can dead people really fart?
Yes. Every dead body releases the gas and liquids etc from the body. Not all the time but most dead bodies leak urine and feces. This is caused by the lack of muscle control. Though every dead body releases gas. Though this usually happens quite some time after the persons death. Source(s): biology major
Actually the point is that when you die, you are no longer a creature, no longer a warlord, so you no longer have that feature active.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 07, 2013 - 12:21PM
#80
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2003
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Can you quote your source on this? I would have thought "totally incapacitated" in the defintion of Unconcious (and hence in the definition of Petrified) would be more than enough to mean that you could not make sounds.
The point you keep seem to be missing is that nothing in the class feature requires the Warlord to make a sound. If the party is currently hidden and ambushing an enemy, the Warlord doesn't have to make a sound and give up being hidden in order for his allies to gain the benefit.
The only requirements are as follows:
1) There is a Line of Sight between the Warlord and his ally and the Warlord is not invisibile, and not hidden to the ally.
2) The ally is able to see (not blinded) and hear (not deafened) and has no other condition preventing the making a of a basic Perception check (i.e., the ally is unconscious)
3) There is nothing blocking the passage of sounds between the Warlord and the ally, such as magical silence, a solid transparent wall, etc.
There may be some cases where something obscures sound (a large distance (but still in visible range), a stampede of cattle, a glass wall, a swarm of crickets, etc) and would warrant a perception check, but that is totally up the DM.
Nothing in the class feature indicates that that the Warlord says or does anything in particular - it's simply his/her prescence which cause the effect.
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