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6 months ago ::
Jan 03, 2013 - 9:14PM
#61
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Meanwhile, back at the gaming table … DM: With a last expiring gasp, the evil wizard waves his wand and hurls a curse at you, Taskal. (rolls dice) 32! What is your fortitude, Taskal? Taskal: 29. DM: Oh dear. Take 19 points of damage, and you are petrified. Well, team, your warlord has been turned to stone. Bodag: But he is the only one who knows the way out. Taskal: I can tell them where the map is. DM: No you can’t. You’re turned to stone. You can’t speak. Kresta: Maybe if I listen very carefully. (rolls dice) There, I rolled a natural 20. I must be able to hear him. DM: No, you can’t hear him. Kresta: Why not? DM: He’s made of stone. He can’t speak so you can’t hear him. Nobody can hear him. (pause) DM: And oh, look! Here come some more monsters. They must have heard the previous battle and have come to investigate. Fortunately you were not surprised. Time to roll initiative. Bodag: This looks bad. No warlord, so no healing and no bonus to initiative. We could suffer here. DM: No, you do get the initiative bonus. Bodag: But the rule says I have to be able to hear him. DM: It does. Bodag: And you just said we couldn’t hear him. DM: Correct. Bodag: So we don’t get the bonus. DM: No, you get the bonus. Bodag: How’s that. DM: Well the rules don’t say that you can’t hear him, so you can hear him. Kresta: Then I can hear him! DM: Of course you can’t. He’s a solid block of stone. Kresta: But you just said … DM: In the game you can’t hear him, but for the purposes of the rules, you can. Bodag: I thought the rules and the game where the same thing. DM: Oh no. Thakis: If the rules don’t say I can’t hear him, then I can? DM: Yes. Thakis: Then I can hear him, and he can tell me the way out. DM: NO YOU CAN’T! Look at him. He is a solid block of stone. You can’t hear him and he can’t tell you the way out.
Monty Python would be proud.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 03, 2013 - 10:32PM
#62
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The feature says you have to be able to see and hear the Warlord. That is something you have to be able to do.
This is the rule. We have no dispute about that.
It has nothing to do with the Warlord. If the Warlord can't make noise, you're fine, because you can hear him. You are inventing the idea that the Warlord has to make noise in order for you to be able to hear him. That is not true. Your ability to hear him has nothing to do with wheather or not he makes noise. Ever.
This is your interpretation of the rule. I understand that his is what you think "ally can .. hear you" means. But this phrase is not defined in the rules and must be interpreted. You have interpreted it as above. I can just as accurately say that you are inventing that "It has nothing to do with the warlord." After all, the rule says you have to be able to hear the warlord, but you say the warlord is irrelevant.
You say you can hear him even when he is not making a noise. But the rule doesn't say that. That is your interpretation.
And one of the tentants of the logic of 4e is that things do only what they actually say they do.
You say this loudly and often, but then promptly add all these additional restrictions.
I think your interpretation of the rule is poor, awkward and results in numerous unnecessary inconsistencies. I aslo think you have lost track of what is rule and what is interpretation.
I understand you are trying to avoid idiocies that would arise with requiring the warlord to actually speak (you would know this if you had read and understood past posts).
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6 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 8:33AM
#63
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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Your example is a good example of why the bonus gets applied.
"DM: You can hear him, you get the bonus
Player: But you said we couldn't hear him?
DM: He can't talk, if he could talk while turned to stone you would be able to hear him. The problem is he can't talk while being stone. Warlord do you have any telepathic way of communicating? No? Well, he can't talk, but you can still hear him. You weren't turned to stone, he was."
Edit: Now if, rather than being turned to stone, he was trapped in a stone box and thus didn't have LoS or LoE to you (and you couldn't hear him regardless of the fact that he was making noise) then you wouldn't get the bonus.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 9:59AM
#64
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
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Your example is a good example of why the bonus gets applied.
"DM: You can hear him, you get the bonus
Player: But you said we couldn't hear him?
DM: He can't talk, if he could talk while turned to stone you would be able to hear him. The problem is he can't talk while being stone. Warlord do you have any telepathic way of communicating? No? Well, he can't talk, but you can still hear him. You weren't turned to stone, he was."
Edit: Now if, rather than being turned to stone, he was trapped in a stone box and thus didn't have LoS or LoE to you (and you couldn't hear him regardless of the fact that he was making noise) then you wouldn't get the bonus.
Exactly.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
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6 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 2:36PM
#65
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The only idiocy I am trying avoid is you thinking you're correct, when you are so far wrong it is laughable. That isn't an interpretation of the rule, that is the rule.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 9:55PM
#66
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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Meanwhile, back at the gaming table …
DM: With a last expiring gasp, the evil wizard waves his wand and hurls a curse at you, Taskal. (rolls dice) 32! What is your fortitude, Taskal?
Taskal: 29.
DM: Oh dear. Take 19 points of damage, and you are petrified. Well, team, your warlord has been turned to stone.
Bodag: But he is the only one who knows the way out.
Taskal: I can tell them where the map is.
DM: No you can’t. You’re turned to stone. You can’t speak.
Kresta: Maybe if I listen very carefully. (rolls dice) There, I rolled a natural 20. I must be able to hear him.
DM: No, you can’t hear him.
Kresta: Why not?
DM: He’s made of stone. He can’t speak so you can’t hear him. Nobody can hear him.
(pause)
DM: And oh, look! Here come some more monsters. They must have heard the previous battle and have come to investigate. Fortunately you were not surprised. Time to roll initiative.
Bodag: This looks bad. No warlord, so no healing and no bonus to initiative. We could suffer here.
DM: No, you do get the initiative bonus.
Bodag: But the rule says I have to be able to hear him.
DM: It does.
Bodag: And you just said we couldn’t hear him.
DM: Correct.
Bodag: So we don’t get the bonus.
DM: No, you get the bonus.
Bodag: How’s that.
DM: Well the rules don’t say that you can’t hear him, so you can hear him.
Kresta: Then I can hear him!
DM: Of course you can’t. He’s a solid block of stone.
Kresta: But you just said …
DM: In the game you can’t hear him, but for the purposes of the rules, you can.
Bodag: I thought the rules and the game where the same thing.
DM: Oh no.
Thakis: If the rules don’t say I can’t hear him, then I can?
DM: Yes.
Thakis: Then I can hear him, and he can tell me the way out.
DM: NO YOU CAN’T! Look at him. He is a solid block of stone. You can’t hear him and he can’t tell you the way out.
Monty Python would be proud.
Except none of this has to do with the rules talk.
Alcestis is completely right in this case. With how 4e's rules work, the power does exactly what it does. It says you must be able to hear him. It does not say he must be able to make noise, so whether he can or not is irrelevant.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 05, 2013 - 11:17PM
#67
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Your example is a good example of why the bonus gets applied.
"DM: You can hear him, you get the bonus
Player: But you said we couldn't hear him?
DM: He can't talk, if he could talk while turned to stone you would be able to hear him. The problem is he can't talk while being stone. Warlord do you have any telepathic way of communicating? No? Well, he can't talk, but you can still hear him. You weren't turned to stone, he was."
Edit: Now if, rather than being turned to stone, he was trapped in a stone box and thus didn't have LoS or LoE to you (and you couldn't hear him regardless of the fact that he was making noise) then you wouldn't get the bonus.
You miss the point.
The power does exactly what it says it does. In the scenario above, Kresta wants to listen to the petrified warlord, rolls a perception check and asks, "Can I hear him?" The DM says "No you can't hear him." Since the feature requires an "ally who can ... hear you", that is all it takes for the feature to fail. Anything else, such as:
"He can't talk, if he could talk while turned to stone you would be able to hear him."
is just adding to the rules, and as you say, in 4E you can't do that.
Nothing in the rule makes any distinction between why you cant hear him. If you cant hear him because he cant make a sound or you cant hear him because he is in a sound-proof box or you cant hear him because you are deafened, you dont get the benefit. Same as for sight. If you cant see him:
- because he is invisible
- because you dont have line of sight
- because you are blinded
You still cant see him and you dont get the benefit. Any attempt to treat the situation differently because of why you cant see him or why you cant hear him is an addition to the rules. Is the DM correct to say "you can't hear him"? A creature that is petrified/unconcious is "incapacitated totally" and "unable to take actions". Nothing in the rules adds "but you are still able to hear him". That would be making up things that are not there.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 06, 2013 - 3:01AM
#68
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2010
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As I said: the petrified warlord's petrified hair rattles inspiringly in the wind. You hear it. Unless you're deafened.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 06, 2013 - 3:37AM
#69
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2010
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If a petrified warlord falls over in a forest...
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6 months ago ::
Jan 06, 2013 - 5:51AM
#70
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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Nothing in the rules adds "but you are still able to hear him". That would be making up things that are not there.
Which is irrelevant.
"You must be able to see and hear the Warlord." is the only qualifier for the ability. Whether he's actively making noise does not matter.
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