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6 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 1:23PM
#51
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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I think AC 17 is fine, the problem is that the 5e stat block is missing the kinds of powers that turn him into a creature like "The Devil". He is just a "charmer" type of arch devil, he doesn't have thick armored plates on his shoulders or combat training like a 20th level fighter would. The other component that is missing is all the background information on the Nine Hells; Laws, customs, rights of succession, caucus belli, etc. The very nature of the plane itself might prevent just anyone from killing Asmodeous. Lastly, the assumption that one must be the most powerfull creature in a plane to be it's ruler is just nonsensical. Politics don't work that way.
It really doesn't mater what the math says, what happens in the campaign is up to the DM.
If the DM wants Asmodeous to die in one round there is nothing wrong with it.
I mean what are the odds that Cyric could kill the god of murder (Bhaal) by backstabing him with his shortsword? Still that happened in the Avatar Trilogy.
Another example is Jabba the Hut, who was choked to death by a half naked girl. The power he had over other people wasn't based on how powerfull he was in combat. After all, he really is nothing but a big fat slug.
Weak or not in combat, Asmodeous is still the ruler of hell for a reason.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 2:39PM
#52
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2012
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They stated that they wanted scaling to slow down after 11th level. At 11th level you have a lot of your ongoing damage output already, and so this does not really surprise me.
However, maybe Asmodeus does need more hps or better AC in general. Disadvantage is pretty severe though and your number crunching in the OP is wrong in the sense that your characters would have to make all saves or have disadvantage. A better DPR calculation could show the true possible output of a level 11 party.
But I guess what the OP is saying is: if the party all goes first, if the party all saves, if the party all hits, then Asmodeus dies in a 4 hit max daily power strike. I think I could buy that at 11th level. One could also calculate the chances of all those happening.
Chances of passing the saving throw so that they don't have disadvantage are probably around a roll of 14 and up 35%. For four party members those chances are down to 1.5%. So the fighter is doing minimum damage. Great. AC is only 17. This means players who saved miss perhaps 30% of the time. Chance that the party all hits is : 24% So this could happen once in four scenarios. Chances of everyone making saves AND everyone hitting is now less than 0.3% This is onyl two pieces of the puzzle and it has a less than one in 250 chance of succeeding.
I think I'm okay with this.
Currently running a playtest, weekly, online D&D Next Session using a virtual table system called roll20.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 2:55PM
#53
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Lastly, the assumption that one must be the most powerfull creature in a plane to be it's ruler is just nonsensical. Politics don't work that way.
Well, then I am really curios to see the stats for the demonlords, because each of them would then be able to curbstomb Asmodeus. Because in the Abyss the most powerfull creature on the plane rules, the Abyss works that way.
I mean what are the odds that Cyric could kill the god of murder (Bhaal) by backstabing him with his shortsword? Still that happened in the Avatar Trilogy.
If the "shortsword" in question happens to be a full-fledged deity itself who is merely posing as a shortsword, the odds are pretty good.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 4:37PM
#54
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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Regardless of how you 'may have a stupid DM' or the fact that Asmodeus is supra-genius (god I hate AD&D), the math is still simply there that Asmodeus can be taken down in one round due to bounded accuracy.
Again, bounded accuracy has nothing to do with it. A party of 1st level characters could never do enough damage to take Asmodeus down in one round, even though they could probably hit him. A group of level 13 characters could do it, but that's because they do such insane damage, not because of bounded accuracy. And yes, this is a serious problem. The damage scaling in this packet needs to be scaled back immensely. But it has absolutely nothing at all to do with bounded accuracy, so stop blaming that.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 4:44PM
#55
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The fact that the lord of hell has worse AC than a normal human in nonmagical plate makes me think he could certainly use a buff.
Definitely. A +5 from being a lvl 20 fighter, and a +5 from attribute bonus, means you hit on a 7+. With disadvantage, according to what we've been told, that's equivalent to needing to roll a 12+. Definitely not high enough.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
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so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:44AM
#56
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2008
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Regardless of how you 'may have a stupid DM' or the fact that Asmodeus is supra-genius (god I hate AD&D), the math is still simply there that Asmodeus can be taken down in one round due to bounded accuracy.
Again, bounded accuracy has nothing to do with it. A party of 1st level characters could never do enough damage to take Asmodeus down in one round, even though they could probably hit him. A group of level 13 characters could do it, but that's because they do such insane damage, not because of bounded accuracy. And yes, this is a serious problem. The damage scaling in this packet needs to be scaled back immensely. But it has absolutely nothing at all to do with bounded accuracy, so stop blaming that.
So bounded accuracy increases damage at the expense of hitting and you think it has nothing to do with the OP's example? Bounded Accuracy has EVERYTHING to do with this. They are increasing damage input because of BA. I think you need to sit down and think BA through...obviously you haven't.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 24, 2012 - 2:14AM
#57
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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So bounded accuracy increases damage at the expense of hitting and you think it has nothing to do with the OP's example? Bounded Accuracy has EVERYTHING to do with this. They are increasing damage input because of BA.
Having bounded accuracy in the game does not make scaling the damage like this in any way necessary. You can have a game with both bounded accuracy AND bounded damage. You can also have a game where the damage scales, but not as much in this packet. Accuracy and damage are totally separate things that can be adjusted independently of one another.
I think you need to sit down and think BA through...obviously you haven't.
There's no need to be rude.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 24, 2012 - 9:07AM
#58
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2006
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One thing that would help to put Asmodeus stat block into perspective would be to be told what his place in DDN is supposed to be.
Which is the exact point I was trying to make in the other thread.
With the absence of fluff, I don't think its fair to assume his "divine stature" yet. Perhaps they are swinging back to the older editions where we was a powerful entity, but not a greater god.
Until we know the intent of the designers, and the designs they have for the planes, its all premature.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 24, 2012 - 9:14AM
#59
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One thing that would help to put Asmodeus stat block into perspective would be to be told what his place in DDN is supposed to be.
Which is the exact point I was trying to make in the other thread.
With the absence of fluff, I don't think its fair to assume his "divine stature" yet. Perhaps they are swinging back to the older editions where we was a powerful entity, but not a greater god.
Until we know the intent of the designers, and the designs they have for the planes, its all premature.
We already have this fluff. The WM article states that he is as powerfull as a deity. Thus deities are as weak to a batallion mortal soldiers as he is
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6 months ago ::
Dec 24, 2012 - 9:23AM
#60
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2006
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We already have this fluff. The WM article states that he is as powerfull as a deity. Thus deities are as weak to a batallion mortal soldiers as he is
You mean the article that proposes possible fluff that we are asked to vote on so that we can help mold the final product to the desires of the playing public? You mean that article?
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