|
5 months ago ::
Dec 28, 2012 - 11:21PM
#151
|
|
|
If you want to do a "fighter with magic," just make a separate base class. Besides, the Paladin and Ranger already come close, as does the Hexblade in 3.x. It can be done without messing with the fighter, which is too iconic to screw with in that direction.
Why should that be necessary, though? If they can allow the Fighter to cover an entire extra character type, and all it takes is a single paragraph organizing a handful of new maneuvers, then why should it take a whole new class for that?
Because, for some reason that can never actually be articulated, the fighter class (and only the fighter class) has to be extremely narrowly defined.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 28, 2012 - 11:22PM
#152
|
|
|
If you want to do a "fighter with magic," just make a separate base class. Besides, the Paladin and Ranger already come close, as does the Hexblade in 3.x. It can be done without messing with the fighter, which is too iconic to screw with in that direction.
Why should that be necessary, though? If they can allow the Fighter to cover an entire extra character type, and all it takes is a single paragraph organizing a handful of new maneuvers, then why should it take a whole new class for that?
You make a good point. If you want to do it within the framework of the current rules, the simplest way would be to add a background or specialty which allows a fighter to use a couple of cantrips or gives them a set of 1/Day spells instead of feats. You don't even have to use maneuvers at all.
Or they could include an optional module with a list of magical maneuvers.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 28, 2012 - 11:25PM
#153
|
Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
|
If you want to do a "fighter with magic," just make a separate base class. Besides, the Paladin and Ranger already come close, as does the Hexblade in 3.x. It can be done without messing with the fighter, which is too iconic to screw with in that direction.
Why should that be necessary, though? If they can allow the Fighter to cover an entire extra character type, and all it takes is a single paragraph organizing a handful of new maneuvers, then why should it take a whole new class for that?
Because, for some reason that can never actually be articulated, the fighter class (and only the fighter class) has to be extremely narrowly defined.
I can see just having the Fighter, and Hexblades, Paladins, Rangers, etc, being options/sub-classes/variants.
Same with the rogue at this point.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:25AM
#154
|
Date Joined:
Feb 20, 2007
|
Herakles wrestled death to perform a martial flavored resurection, CuCulaine became so hot in battle on occasion that he caused water to boil and things to burst in to flames about him.
Both demigods. Having a god for a parent gave them supernatural abilities, not being a fighter.
Yup. Classes are separate from other game-ability-granting constructs (race/class/feat/bloodline/theme/background/etc.) in that they represent those aspects of a character's ability that come from training, constant use, or achievement actively sought after, rather than innately existing within the character due to heritage, social upbringing, and so forth.
Just like having a dragon for a distant ancestor is what gives a sorcerer his supernatural abilities, not being a sorcerer.
...Wait a second...
I've finally figured out how to put in a sig. Yes, I'm including this here for no other reason than to express how happy I am that I could finally do this. For goodness' sake, change these forums back (or just change, I don't care).
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:40AM
#155
|
Date Joined:
Feb 20, 2007
|
Personally, I like the idea that everyone in the universe would have some capacity with magic.
I mean, we exist in a universe with laws of physics, biology, sociology, matter, etc. Therefore, and by virtue of nothing else but simply existing in such a universe, we interact with those things.
The same would hold true for a universe with magic. You can't see it right now, but as I'm typing these words, I'm metabolizing nutrients. Commonplace for you and me, but to someone from a universe where that sort of thing doesn't happen, I'm an astounding specimen of being. So a person from a universe with magic should, innately and for no other reason than because of the circumstances of the sort of place he happens to exist, have magic.
Does that mean spells? No, of course not. In our own universe, there exists something known as "proper body dynamics" that everyone (except for a few unfortunate cases, i.e., Stephen Hawking) can use. But just we can and should lift with our legs, not with our back, that doesn't mean that we all innately know this.
So sure, give Fighters (and Rogues, Swashbucklers, Samurai, Scouts, Hunters, and whatever other classes may be created that initially have a "mundane" concept) the capacity for magic.
I've finally figured out how to put in a sig. Yes, I'm including this here for no other reason than to express how happy I am that I could finally do this. For goodness' sake, change these forums back (or just change, I don't care).
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 29, 2012 - 3:59AM
#156
|
Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2009
|
Here's my two cents: Why the love for casters?
Seriously. The ONLY option to make fighters viable and still "Just super awesome because....LOOK AT MY HUGE SWORD! TESTOSTEROOOONE!" is to beat them with a nerf bat until the skraelings can't level mountains with a wave.
Or leave Mundane McNomagic as the Warrior (NPC) class and let a little of the universe's cosmic awesome enter the fighter because they're supposed to be the ultimate FIGHTERS in their universe. (And this IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN SO drek is just that: Who here really wants to see "Rakshasa were originally discovered in India" again?) What's the difference, here, between fighters using magic and using gunpowder? Fighters should want every edge they can get, or they will DIE.
As in dead.
I can't think of a setting where that's a good thing. Dying, that is. You don't tackle a dragon with your massive thews and nothing else. NPCs try that, and die in droves. Anyone who makes it to the Fighter class should recognize that.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 29, 2012 - 6:43AM
#157
|
Date Joined:
Dec 20, 2012
|
I don't really think every class needs spells, but I think everyone should be able to interact with magic in a way that's not "It's something wizards cast at me". Give the fighter SR If need be. Make his "magic" be something that infuses his body and makes him better than the norm.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 29, 2012 - 7:40AM
#158
|
Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
|
Herakles wrestled death to perform a martial flavored resurection, CuCulaine became so hot in battle on occasion that he caused water to boil and things to burst in to flames about him.
Both demigods. Having a god for a parent gave them supernatural abilities, not being a fighter.
Yup. Classes are separate from other game-ability-granting constructs (race/class/feat/bloodline/theme/background/etc.) in that they represent those aspects of a character's ability that come from training, constant use, or achievement actively sought after, rather than innately existing within the character due to heritage, social upbringing, and so forth.
Just like having a dragon for a distant ancestor is what gives a sorcerer his supernatural abilities, not being a sorcerer.
...Wait a second...
Exactly.. D&D doesnt actually bucket things according to "world" model but simply a broad archetype, if the broad archetype of fighter includes magical effects its not intrinsic to the game that they be tagged on via separate mechanisms. (elves do archery because of culture or genetics?)
Note however the above is not absolutely necessary either .. we are now looking at potentially having more elements (backgrounds/themes/paragon paths/epic destinies) that are external to "class" than previous editions.
However... the question of is the character a demigod/demigod caliber is not cut and dry and may simply be are they high enough level. Demigods often discovered there status after the fact and began raised as humans showing simple exceptional capacities while young. Add to that myths of becoming or achieving transcendance due to extremes of skill and we end up with high level being the very definition of aquiring divinity.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 29, 2012 - 8:49AM
#159
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
|
Herakles wrestled death to perform a martial flavored resurection, CuCulaine became so hot in battle on occasion that he caused water to boil and things to burst in to flames about him.
Both demigods. Having a god for a parent gave them supernatural abilities, not being a fighter.
And every Spell caster example is a demigod too.. guess they dont get to have spell casting just herbs and lore? right?
Oh, and CuCulaine lost his primary supernatural ability when he broke an oath... it was a Paladin like ability actually.
Atlantes
Farmer Weathersky
Jannes and Jambres
Many of the witches and wizards from fairy tales.
Not all had god's for parents.
|
|
|
|
5 months ago ::
Dec 29, 2012 - 8:52AM
#160
|
Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
|
There could be a separate module for divine/epic play, even at at 1st level, for heroes such as Herakles/Hercules, Vainenmoinen (sp?), etc.
|
|
|
