Community

 
Jump Menu:
Post Reply
5 months ago  ::  Dec 19, 2012 - 9:38PM #1
Bly2729
Date Joined: Sep 2, 2007
Posts: 415

Tonight I got to try out the new 12/17 packet.  I’d like to start out by saying this packet is bull, I couldn’t roll initiative higher than a 3.  So I updated my level 2 Stout Rogue for the new packet.  After being forced down the combat chute in 4th edition, I’m letting my flag fly and going for a really iconoclastic rogue.  I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I like to think of this character as the “Littlefinger Rogue.”  More focused on intrigue.  And this is even knowing that we’re doing Caves of Chaos.  It’s very dungeon crawly.  I don’t mean that as a negative, it’s just not something you would bring to a crawl.  But to me, that’s the point.  If I tried to bring something to a random 4th edition game that was intentionally bad at combat, I’d get ****ed.  And I know this.  There will be combat, it will take at least an hour, and if you try to avoid the combat in the kind of published game that gets played at public gatherings people stare at you like you’re juggling in a graveyard.  It’s charming but not really the time or place.


So how what’s new and how did it work?  For starters, I like having more stuff.  Benefit, Talents, Tricks oh my.  The fistful of dice thing wasn’t the drag I thought it would be.  You’ve got one die for skills (well two, Rogue) and one die for damage.  It was cool and the math worked.  The fact is many of the goblins and things you fight are minions.  The d6 damage die felt right in combat against an ogre and hobgoblins.  2d6 + Dex felt like I could make a meaningful contribution.


Skill Dice were a bit of a mixed bag.  Rolling two of them felt like a bit much of  a nerf compared to the floor of 16 in the first packet and the continuous expertise die + Training last time.  I definitely felt the sting of fewer successes.  I guess, with this Skill Mastery mechanic, it feels too much like the situation is left to fortune.  Even rolling two dice and taking the higher.  But I think expertise + training may’ve been too much.  I guess this is the best compromise.


So I wanted to come up with my own scheme because nothing had quite the mix I wanted.  I decided to call this scheme, “Chessmaster.”  It lives somewhere between the Rake and the Trickster.   For a benefit, I couldn’t decide between Sneak Attack and Artful Dodger.  I’ll come back to this later, but I settled on Artful Dodger which seems broken good.  I love how Assassinate obviates the need for a separate assassin class.  As for the other thing, I chose to go with the Trickster’s 3 extra skill tricks.  Not to be an optimizer, but this seemed like far and away the best option.  This turned out to be possibly the best option depending on your playstyle, I’ll explain that too.


What this packet and this adventure told me, more than anything else, is that this packet, this version of D&D, is finally and completely customizable to best suit you and your group’s playstyle.  By this I mean, not all Skills Tricks are equal.  Take Unassuming Threat.  This is cool, you boost your AC when adjacent to a friendly.  But, the type of game my group played tonight, really no one cares, notices, or asks if people are adjacent to each other.  Asking would break the flow.  I’d much rather have Gilded Tongue, a simple reroll, requires no asking or gamey-talk.  When it comes up, reroll.  That’s it.  A tactical grid-rewarding trick like Unassuming Threat is cool, but less useful simply by the nature of our table.


This is why I did some off the books retraining at the table.  Sneak Attack didn’t work for me because advantage didn’t really come up enough to make it a viable option.  I’m not saying the DM was stingy with advantage, its that me personally I’m not comfortable asking for advantage.  I find it too reminiscent of 4E having the players tell me all the conditional modifiers.  It’s annoying.  And it would be too artificial to ask, what do I need to do to get advantage?  So I took up Artful Dodger instead.


So the first Skill Trick I snapped up was Charming Presence.  It was also the first one I dropped.  I found the power felt too much like a spell for my taste.  And Charmed is more like a combat condition.  It’s like one moment I make a Charisma check, then suddenly they’re charmed.  Can’t attack.  Can it be done in the middle of a fight?  Yes but I’m not sure it makes sense.  It didn’t fit the more realist oriented nature of this character and our table.  But that’s okay.  There are enough skill tricks for the game to be customizable.  If I wanted a tacticsy grid game, there are skill tricks that speak to that character and I don’t feel weak or inefficient for not choosing them.


Couple general notes.  I didn’t have a problem with healing.  With Artful Dodger and Unassuming Threat I stayed out of trouble.  But with my 2d6 Hit dice I restored a total of 5 of my 12 hit points.  There wasn’t a cleric, and we didn’t really have health potions.  It wasn’t a problem, but I think that was luck and not design.  The other thing was languages.  We were in a dungeon with lots of scheming monsters and no one spoke any monstrous languages.  It was a problem and more importantly, monstrous languages represent kind of an adventure dead end.  You either know them or you don’t.  If the adventure hinges on knowing one, you’d better give the party a way to learn it.  Otherwise, it’s completely useless.  It only adds a pinch of immersion if I can play with it, right now I can’t.




(Dragonette: Let's keep the language and references appropriate. Thanks)

Moderated by Dragonette on Dec 20, 2012 - 08:33AM
DMAIA: DMs Against Immediate Actions - Turning 6 seconds into 15 minutes since 2008.

Vampire Class/Specialty in 2013!

Wizard: I cast Burning Hands.
Rogue: I grab a torch and a can of hairspray.

I prefer Next because 4E players and CharOpers can't find their ass without a grid and a power called "Find Ass."
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 months ago  ::  Dec 20, 2012 - 3:38AM #2
Rhenny
Date Joined: Dec 21, 2011
Posts: 1,553
Nice report.  I like how you tried to create an interesting PC rather than one tricked out for combat.  That is cool.


How did the new "To hit" scores for monsters and the lower "to hit scores" for PCs feel?     
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 months ago  ::  Dec 20, 2012 - 4:58AM #3
Bly2729
Date Joined: Sep 2, 2007
Posts: 415
I really didn't notice a change.  Did damage change a whole lot for ogres and hobgoblins?

I feel like with my rogue's Artful Dodger ability and the fighter's parry, we're at a compromise where the monsters are more accurate but the PCs have some kind of active defense mechanic to mitigate that rather than finding the exact AC/To Hit balance.
DMAIA: DMs Against Immediate Actions - Turning 6 seconds into 15 minutes since 2008.

Vampire Class/Specialty in 2013!

Wizard: I cast Burning Hands.
Rogue: I grab a torch and a can of hairspray.

I prefer Next because 4E players and CharOpers can't find their ass without a grid and a power called "Find Ass."
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 months ago  ::  Dec 20, 2012 - 4:35PM #4
Rhenny
Date Joined: Dec 21, 2011
Posts: 1,553

Dec 20, 2012 -- 4:58AM, Bly2729 wrote:

I really didn't notice a change.  Did damage change a whole lot for ogres and hobgoblins?

I feel like with my rogue's Artful Dodger ability and the fighter's parry, we're at a compromise where the monsters are more accurate but the PCs have some kind of active defense mechanic to mitigate that rather than finding the exact AC/To Hit balance.




If Artful Dodger is the Talent that neutrolizes attack potential of monsters, do you think that every Rogue player will feel inordinate pressure to take it as the Talent over the other options (even Sneak Attack)?   On first glance, it does seem pretty powerful.

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 months ago  ::  Dec 21, 2012 - 2:10PM #5
Bly2729
Date Joined: Sep 2, 2007
Posts: 415
Artful Dodger imposes disadvantage against an attack.  It can only be done once per round.  I think at low levels, when a rogue has like 7 hitpoints and every monster is a mionion, sneak attack is a hard sell.  But it gets better pretty damn quick as the monsters get stronger and stronger.
DMAIA: DMs Against Immediate Actions - Turning 6 seconds into 15 minutes since 2008.

Vampire Class/Specialty in 2013!

Wizard: I cast Burning Hands.
Rogue: I grab a torch and a can of hairspray.

I prefer Next because 4E players and CharOpers can't find their ass without a grid and a power called "Find Ass."
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 months ago  ::  Dec 22, 2012 - 4:26PM #6
Bly2729
Date Joined: Sep 2, 2007
Posts: 415
I should also add that it depends on the game you're in and what kind of player you are.  Me personally, I'm not comfortable asking for advantage.  In 4th edition games all the time I see players remind the DM there's +2 from this, -2 from that and in addition to being shy anyways, I'm self-concious about henpecking the DM.  And in our more story RP oriented game we don't really stop to discuss mechanical conditions.  It's easier for me to tell the DM this monster has disadvantage than for me to ask if I've earned advantage or for the DM to remember to tell me I have it while he's trying to tell a story.
DMAIA: DMs Against Immediate Actions - Turning 6 seconds into 15 minutes since 2008.

Vampire Class/Specialty in 2013!

Wizard: I cast Burning Hands.
Rogue: I grab a torch and a can of hairspray.

I prefer Next because 4E players and CharOpers can't find their ass without a grid and a power called "Find Ass."
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 months ago  ::  Dec 22, 2012 - 10:24PM #7
FluxPoint
Date Joined: Sep 26, 2012
Posts: 262
Your real avenue for gaining advantage is usually to be hidden or to use something like feint. 

Also as far as charming presence: have you ever seen Firefly? If so, you'll know the charming presence in that series as it applies to Jayne. Convincing somone that they're on the wrong side is just that. Also the DM decides if that succeeds and I wouldn't let a player "just succeed." NPCs have their own motives and believes and the player would have to tell the story that persuades the NPC to be charmed 'and' make the roll.




Currently running a playtest, weekly, online D&D Next Session using a virtual table system called roll20.
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 months ago  ::  Dec 23, 2012 - 4:14AM #8
Bly2729
Date Joined: Sep 2, 2007
Posts: 415

Dec 22, 2012 -- 10:24PM, FluxPoint wrote:

Also the DM decides if that succeeds and I wouldn't let a player "just succeed." NPCs have their own motives and believes and the player would have to tell the story that persuades the NPC to be charmed 'and' make the roll.




And I agree with that completely.  The ability requires the player succeed on a Charisma check (DC set by the DM) while attempting to use charm or diplomacy.  And the current language of the charmed condition is, can't attack the person and advantage on social checks.  It's just the way it worked out in play felt very abstract and clunky.  This goes back to my post a few weeks ago.

community.wizards.com/bly2729/blog/2012/...

On one hand you've got Gilded Tongue, a reroll on Charisma checks.  On the other, you've got Charming Presence, a charisma check to Charm a creature.  If the DM wants some roleplaying with that check, I am happy to oblige and I completely agree that there should be.  But as I experienced it in game, this Skill Trick played out like a 4E power.  And I think it should stay in the game for 4E players looking to try Next.  But for my needs, I view this ability and Gilded Tongue as achieving the same ends through different means.  On is a power, one is roleplaying with a reroll to grease the way.

The power I used as an example was Taunt.  Make a check, the enemy has to use its next movement to come after you.  I'd rather the player have to tell me what the end of that trick looks like.  Because as it stands, right now my rogue can attempt to taunt a monster into using its movement to come after me.  Same way in 4th edition I didn't need a power to throw sand in someone's eyes.  Anyone can do this trick, if roleplayed correctly.

DMAIA: DMs Against Immediate Actions - Turning 6 seconds into 15 minutes since 2008.

Vampire Class/Specialty in 2013!

Wizard: I cast Burning Hands.
Rogue: I grab a torch and a can of hairspray.

I prefer Next because 4E players and CharOpers can't find their ass without a grid and a power called "Find Ass."
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 months ago  ::  Dec 23, 2012 - 12:34PM #9
FluxPoint
Date Joined: Sep 26, 2012
Posts: 262
Ahh. So you're saying, it duplicates what you'd allow someone to do with a Cha check already? Taunt is cha vs wis, so that is very much like a power. Charming Presence really isn't (and doesn't come with advantage). In addition, charming presence has the serious side effect of giving up your skill die to keep assuring this dude that you are his friend. And either way it'd be role played at my table, so I don't really understand your distinction. Gilded Tongue can't be used with charming presence as both require that skill die to work. Same with Taunt.

If your complaint is that they should just be action options and not powers, I get that for Taunt perhaps.

Certainly not for gilded tongue or charming presence. 

 
Currently running a playtest, weekly, online D&D Next Session using a virtual table system called roll20.
Quick Reply
Cancel
Jump Menu:
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing