still undecided what i will get but im telling the players to buy those books, im not going to buy everything for them
You mean let each of them decide which player's book(s) to get? Excellent decision!
The player's books are all balanced, and the DM doesn't need to have them. Yup, that's right: in 4e the DM doesn't actually need to know the rules about the PC's powers (i.e. you just need to know the core rules).
while obviously i would prefer no argument, i really dont minds having the differences spelled out for me, heck that was the first post which actually explained how they were different and i thank you for it
still undecided what i will get but im telling the players to buy those books, im not going to buy everything for them
I don't see anyone arguing. But if you really must get a players book I would go with the original PHB. It has more class options, and race options than both of the Essentials players books for less money all together. Plus it comes with rituals which all of got the boot in Essentials. But if you are making your players buy some too, let them decide on what to buy depending on how/what they wanna play. All the PCs that are created with PHBs 1-3, and the Heroes Books will be compatible with each other in terms of playing and power. And they will all be able to fight the same critters.
Since I'm guess you are gonna want more spelling out here...
Essentials classes while they mechanically play very similarly to core PHB characters they are very streamlined many choices for their level ups are already chosen for them, from things like class features, powers, and even some feats.
While with PHB characters you choose everything from a list of choices each time you level. There is no pigeon holing into specific things.
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Games I Play: - D&D 4e - D&D 3.5 - AD&D 2e - Pathfinder - Call of Cthulhu
One problem with the PH books is power creep. PH3 classes are balanced against each other, but not against previous PH characters. PH 2 characters are balanced against each other, but not PH1 classes. And some classes just seem to be pointless. Likewise, some builds in the _____ Power books are way stronger than the ones in the PH that introduced the class.
Maybe this is my own bias. Maybe I'm wrong. But this is what my experience has shown.
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Here's even more spelling out for you. Here's how each set of books handles different parts of character creation and leveling up.
Class features PHB1: Each class gets all special features for the class at level 1. Essentials: Each class gets some features at level 1, and additional features or improvements to those features at higher levels.
Feats No difference between the 2. Exact same progression, although a few of the Essentials classes get free feats at certain levels.
Powers PHB1: All classes get the Classic AEUD (stands for At-will, Encounter, Utility, Daily) Progression. Pick 2 at-will powers, 1 Encounter, and 1 daily at 1st level, and pick additional powers as you level. Utility at level 2, encounter at level 3, Daily at level 5, utility at level 6, encounter at level 7, daily at level 9, utility at level 10, etc... Essentials: No set in stone progression at all. All classes still get utilities at the normal levels (2, 6, 10, etc...), but the rest of the powers are all over the map. One class, the mage, has a power selection progression that is identical to PHB1. Some other classes, have every single power (other than utilities) picked for them. Several of the classes never get daily powers. And many of the classes get addional utilities at weird levels.
I like both styles, and have had fun with PHB characters and Essentials characters. A player who likes to have a lot of control over every part of how their character levels up will enjoy PHB. Players who want to just have something that works well without worrying about a lot of character creation decisions will probably like Essentials more.
I would pick up Rules Compendium, Monster Vault, and whatever character creation books you think look interesting.
One problem with the PH books is power creep. PH3 classes are balanced against each other, but not against previous PH characters. PH 2 characters are balanced against each other, but not PH1 classes. And some classes just seem to be pointless. Likewise, some builds in the _____ Power books are way stronger than the ones in the PH that introduced the class.
Maybe this is my own bias. Maybe I'm wrong. But this is what my experience has shown.
Can you give an example of a set of classes that are like this? (example from PHB3 > "" PHB2 > "" PHB1)
Other than the battlemind having 2 powers which are scary strong and breakable (Lightning Rush + Brutal Barrage) I can't think of anything from PHB3 that shows them being stronger than the others. Same with the other two handbooks.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here Spoiler:Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Most of PH3 is psionics. Their powers run something like this. You attack me: I get to damage you for attacking (or maybe you actually have to hit) me. You attack someone else: I get to damage you for that. You move: I get to damage you for that. Oh, I can boost some of my powers. Now I have to keep track of what I've used and how that effects the powers. Only played with two of those classes (battlemind was one of them). Might be being overly judgemental, or just plain snarky, but that's how I felt about it.
PH2: Wardens get to make saves at the beginning and end of their turns. So they might totally ignore any conditions your monsters inflict. There are certain feats that have the same effect, but they are limited to a couple of conditions (Superior will allows Beginning of Turn saves for Daze and Stun, but only Daze and Stun, requires a Wis or Cha of 15, and is a paragon feat). And they get to do funky things to terrain and mark everything adjacent to them, just because. compare to: PH1: Fighter. Gets to attack when marked targets shift away from it, or if monster attacks anyone but him. Get's wisdom bonus to those attacks. Oppies stop movement. Only marks creatures it attacks.
Martial Power fighter builds include the 2 weapon fighter, which has at-wills that let it attack with both weapons, each one does full static bonus. (Even the Ranger, king of Damage Per Round, doesn't get full static when it hits twice).
PH2 Avenger: gets to roll twice per attack roll against 1 targetted creature every time it attacks--that's twice the chance to crit, and half the chance to roll a 1. Limitation: it can't be next to another enemy. Should be simple:surround it with minions. Problem: there are lots of powers that allow the Avenger to move, shift, or teleport, either himself or himself and the target, so that the Avenger can pretty much guarentee being allone with designated target. Oh, and it is easily possible to generate massively more static than any PH1 striker class.
PH1 cleric is still the king of healing, BUT, PH2 bard has way nastier side effects.
PH1 has the melee and the range/devoted clerics. Divine Power adds the Pacifist priest, who seldom does damage, but has such incredible healing that it is truly terrifying. (To give you an idea, there is a now-erratta's paragon power called Astral Flare, which was a Burst 7 (15x15)(now burst 3(7x7)) power that did damage and dazed monsters. It was an encounter breaker, esp vs Demons and Undead. Compared to what some of the Pacifist's powers are, it is nothing, even at burst7.
Again, I am biased by my experience. Maybe not everyone has run into the same thing. All I can say, for example, is that the Avenger in my group has consistently had a base static damage of at least 3 higher than the Ranger or Warlocks, and sometimes nearly double. To be fair, the Warlocks also sometimes get bonuses (bloodied, right spell/feat combo, PrimeShot/Prime Punisher, etc) that almost equal the Avenger's typical static. But of course, Warlocks don't get to roll twice with every single attack. From lvl4 to lvl21, number of times the Avenger has not had the option of taking the best of the 2d20: 6. Four of those are when it oathed a Quickling who ran out of the room and out of the encounter.
I am not saying that these are bad character designs. I'm saying that they were not balanced with their predecessors.
(what is an Avenger or a Warden anyway? Give me a litterary example. The designers claimed the Avenger was based on Batman. Since when is Batman a Divine-powered character? Moon Knight (one of the many Marvel clones of Batman) might be arguably be Divine, but Batman?)
So enough of my demented rambling. Maybe you can find some clue in all that.
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
Bow down, my subjects, for I am your master! Yesss.....Show
So, after sifting through that it just sounds like you are trying to compare incomparables and make sure it lines up with what you are talking about? I don't know I'm still a little confused.
I could really pick at a ton of what you have said, but I don't think it will do much good. What it sounds like is that you are trying really hard to make a comment about power creep (which, frankly, doesn't exist in the form you are trying to sell it in) make sense by adding in a bunch of really skewed information. That whole post seems directly counter-productive to helping new players get a grasp of what is going on and how everything is balanced.
A good example would be pacifist clerics which are pretty bad overall. Cool, but pretty unhelpful for the vast majority of cases.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here Spoiler:Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Damage-wise, Pacifists suck. Except against minions. Healing wise... They are amazing. And tons of Temporary Hitpoints. Side effects of powers--frequently game breakers. Stun all monsters in the encounter for either 1 round or save ends. Make monsters vulnerable all damage (hit it, it takes extra damage. Giving ongoing damage: it takes extra damage. Set it up in a zone that does damage: it takes extra damage). Dismiss 1 monster until it saves (lets you pick on the other monsters or gives the party a chance to recover and set up for maximum damage when it returns.
My observation is that the strikers do more damage than existing ones with each new book. The Defenders are less vulnerable with each new book or block more of the monster's effectiveness. The Controllers... actually, no one in any of the parties plays a controller, so I can't comment. The Leaders get more powerful healing, grant more temps, and have more damaging conditions as the books progress. Feats get more and more... well, you get the idea.
Let's look at Martial Power 2. There's a paragon feat that allows you (if you are using a shield) to slow any creature you push, and an epic feat that allows you to daze any creature you slow. Since Tide of Iron is an at-will attack that pushes, at lvl21, a shield fighter has an at-will Daze. With a couple other feats, opportunity attacks push (and thus daze), and even miss attacks start to daze. AT WILL. These options did not exist with PH1.
What does any of this have to do with new players learing? Not much. But then the OP asked "Can you give an example of a set of classes that are like this? (example from PHB3 > PHB2 > PHB1)", so I'm trying (perhaps badly) to answer that.
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
Bow down, my subjects, for I am your master! Yesss.....Show
ZezKai, here's the thing about balance. Everyone wants balance, or perhaps more accurately, everybody fears imbalance*. However, most people downright suck at actually judging what is balanced and what is not, especially with that fear in the mix. As a good rule of thumb, don't believe anything you hear about whether something is balanced or not until you can get a consensus on it from more than one or two people. And then, take it with a grain of salt.
That being said, just have your players buy what they think looks cool. 4e, essentials, it's all the same game, it'll all work together. The game isn't perfectly balanced, but as a group of new players, you're a long way from even being able to really tell, and it's just not something you need to worry about at this point in time.
*Blanket statement, exceptions, etc, etc.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
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I'd recommend both a PH1 and an Essentials 'Heroes' book. The PH1 has the ability score generation methods, multiclassing rules, and magic rituals, while the 'Heroes' books have updated rules and better feats. Eventually, you might want to look into picking up a book of expanded magic items, but otherwise you should be good.
This may seem obvious, but make sure you print out the errata for the books your group gets, whatever they may be. Have fun!
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
