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6 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 5:46PM
#21
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THere is very little of the 3.5 monk in the D&DN monk beyond a few shared keywords and I did say even when compared to te 4th ed monk the resemblences are superficial.
Flurry of Blows, the ki strike/undaunted strike mechanic, Purity of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, Timeless Body, Tongue of Sun and Moon and Empty Body would all seem to disagree with this assertion. I'll grant you that Perfect Self was significantly changed.
The DDN Monk is exactly the same as the 3.5 Monk. A hodge-podge of odd abilities completely unrelated to the theme of the class. What part of the Monk ethos outside of D&D has immunity to poisons, disease, or the ravages of aging? What Monks outside of D&D can talk to every living creature, become ethereal, or slip magically between spaces like a dimension door spell?
If you read the OP, the Monk is using abilities from 1E and 3E, so claiming the Monk is a 3E clone doesn't work unless you consider all Pre-4E Editions to be 3E. Most of the Monks abilities that you comment on were from 1E, where the Monk was not about Kung Fu. The monk represented a mystic unrelated to any real world counterpart. This is why Monks in 2E were a Priest Kit. The Kung Fu Monk was created in 3E and continued into 4E (and sadly into Next).
I would rather see the Monk either return to it's roots (droping the Kung Fu nonsense) or become the Psionic Kung Fu Master. Mixing the two (as 3E has done) just doesn't work for me.
That is fair. The Monk has always been a hodge-podge of odd abilites that are completely unrelated to the class. IIRC though, some of these abilities were added in when 3.0 came out. I don't have my 1st Ed book or my copy of 2nd Ed's Player's Choice books, so I cannot be sure.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 5:50PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2001
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THere is very little of the 3.5 monk in the D&DN monk beyond a few shared keywords and I did say even when compared to te 4th ed monk the resemblences are superficial.
Flurry of Blows, the ki strike/undaunted strike mechanic, Purity of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, Timeless Body, Tongue of Sun and Moon and Empty Body would all seem to disagree with this assertion. I'll grant you that Perfect Self was significantly changed.
The DDN Monk is exactly the same as the 3.5 Monk. A hodge-podge of odd abilities completely unrelated to the theme of the class. What part of the Monk ethos outside of D&D has immunity to poisons, disease, or the ravages of aging? What Monks outside of D&D can talk to every living creature, become ethereal, or slip magically between spaces like a dimension door spell?
Not claiming there is 0 3.5 influence but monks had a similar speaking ability in 1st Ed except it applied to plants instead of anyone. They recycled a few labels from 3.5 and in some cases gave the monk similar abilites but the foundation of the D&DN monk is very new. Basically you spent martial dice to spam at wills which is a evolution of 4th ed powers. Monk and Fighter both replace 2W, 3W etc with martial dice you can spent to add a manuveur (usually a 4th ed effect, push, trip etc).
4th ed reused some labels as well. Unless it is a 100% carbon copy of a 3.5 ability (very close or reworded will also do) it may or may not be 3.5. Alot of the 3.5 things people are complaining about predate 3.5.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*
*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 5:56PM
#23
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THere is very little of the 3.5 monk in the D&DN monk beyond a few shared keywords and I did say even when compared to te 4th ed monk the resemblences are superficial.
Flurry of Blows, the ki strike/undaunted strike mechanic, Purity of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, Timeless Body, Tongue of Sun and Moon and Empty Body would all seem to disagree with this assertion. I'll grant you that Perfect Self was significantly changed.
The DDN Monk is exactly the same as the 3.5 Monk. A hodge-podge of odd abilities completely unrelated to the theme of the class. What part of the Monk ethos outside of D&D has immunity to poisons, disease, or the ravages of aging? What Monks outside of D&D can talk to every living creature, become ethereal, or slip magically between spaces like a dimension door spell?
Not claiming there is 0 3.5 influence but monks had a similar speaking ability in 1st Ed except it applied to plants instead of anyone. They recycled a few labels from 3.5 and in some cases gave the monk similar abilites but the foundation of the D&DN monk is very new. Basically you spent martial dice to spam at wills which is a evolution of 4th ed powers. Monk and Fighter both replace 2W, 3W etc with martial dice you can spent to add a manuveur (usually a 4th ed effect, push, trip etc).
4th ed reused some labels as well. Unless it is a 100% carbon copy of a 3.5 ability (very close or reworded will also do) it may or may not be 3.5. Alot of the 3.5 things people are complaining about predate 3.5.
I found my 1st Ed book. There is no undaunted strike mechanic, immunity to aging, Abundant Step, or Empty Body in the book I have. It seems pretty clear the DDN Monk owes more to the 3.5 Monk than the 1st Ed Monk.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 6:25PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2001
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It is still only a few keywords though and most of the monk is built around the MD dice. There is only a handful of keywords and abilites along with the cleric domain that really evoke 3.5 out of hte 5 classes.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*
*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 6:27PM
#25
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It is still only a few keywords though and most of the monk is built around the MD dice. There is only a handful of keywords and abilites along with the cleric domain that really evoke 3.5 out of hte 5 classes.
Mechanics are not keywords. It is a lot more than just a few, and a lot more than just keywords.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 6:31PM
#26
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My gaming experience started with AD&D 2nd, where I spent a little under a decade.
I was with 3X for most of the ride, altho I had grown bored of it and wandered off for the last few years to fidget with True 20 or other pseudo-D20 systems.
I played 4E from it's inception until a few months after Essentials was released.
I really didn't like Essentials at all. So I cannot compare it with any veracity...
However, DDN feels more like a patische of ideas from various editions, not quite polished in implementation, being torn in multiple directions.
There are several Pre-WotC elements, there are many Pre-4E elements, there are a scant few 4E elements.
Now, I'm still just sinking into the current playtest going to 20th, but my general feel has most resembled pre-WotC D&D, this may be due to limited race and class choices, it may be due to an absence of the elements I recall disliking most from 3X, however, the play reminds me more of pre-WotC. The Rogue is pretty obviously unfinished and in flux, hard to say what is being aimed at for me. The Fighter has a few meaningful decisons to make round to round, giving it a feel that is almost new, closer to 4E than any other Fighter I remember seeing. ect...
Now, the issue is more direction than anything else to me. I'm not feeling the game move in a 3X direction anymore than I feel it move in a 4E direction. It most resonates with what I recall pre-WotC, not in details, but in general play. There are any number of reasons this may be, however, I personally don't have any of the odd stomach reactions I do to 3X clones.
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 6:33PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2001
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Its a grand total of 10 abilities using words on 1 class and not even all of those abilites duplicate the 3.5 ones. And a few of them are basically out of combat stuff.
The clerics domains evoke the image of 3.5 but are done in a totally different way.
I just had a quick look in the 4th ed PHB and OMG it use 6/8 3.5 class names, feats, d20, several races form 3.5 as well ZOMG. Its also got fireball, magic missile, lightning bolt, cleave and power attack gah its 3.5.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*
*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 6:34PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2012
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The DDN Monk is exactly the same as the 3.5 Monk.
God I wish this was true. Monks would have actually been cool. Seriously where the hell were those ki abilities and monastic traditions when I wanted them?
A hodge-podge of odd abilities completely unrelated to the theme of the class. What part of the Monk ethos outside of D&D has immunity to poisons, disease, or the ravages of aging?
Someone isn't familiar with some of the eastern definitions of enlightenment. Mystics like that are supposed to have a variety of abilities.
What Monks outside of D&D can talk to every living creature, become ethereal, or slip magically between spaces like a dimension door spell?
You should check out some old eastern myths like Journey to the West.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 6:40PM
#29
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The DDN Monk is exactly the same as the 3.5 Monk.
God I wish this was true. Monks would have actually been cool. Seriously where the hell were those ki abilities and monastic traditions when I wanted them?
A hodge-podge of odd abilities completely unrelated to the theme of the class. What part of the Monk ethos outside of D&D has immunity to poisons, disease, or the ravages of aging?
Someone isn't familiar with some of the eastern definitions of enlightenment. Mystics like that are supposed to have a variety of abilities.
What Monks outside of D&D can talk to every living creature, become ethereal, or slip magically between spaces like a dimension door spell?
You should check out some old eastern myths like Journey to the West.
Calling the main character in Journey to the West a mere Monk is like calling the Pacific Ocean a pond.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 6:41PM
#30
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Its a grand total of 10 abilities using words on 1 class and not even all of those abilites duplicate the 3.5 ones. And a few of them are basically out of combat stuff.
The clerics domains evoke the image of 3.5 but are done in a totally different way.
I just had a quick look in the 4th ed PHB and OMG it use 6/8 3.5 class names, feats, d20, several races form 3.5 as well ZOMG. Its also got fireball, magic missile, lightning bolt, cleave and power attack gah its 3.5.
I'm not saying DDN is D&D 3.75. I'm saying the DDN Monk is very similar to the 3.5 Monk and shares some of its same design flaws to almost an extreme.
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