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5 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 8:20PM
#11
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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I liked the old way of doing it, where a rapier had a dex modifier bonus to hit, but still a strength modifier bonus to damage.
+1. I think it is absurd that monks have no use whatsoerver for Strength when fighting unarmed. Likewise, bows gain no benefit from Strength, which is also totally unrealistic.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 8:28PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Nov 19, 2012
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The most damage you can do with a finesse weapon is 10 + dex mod (Katana.) The most damage you can do with a single swing is 12 + str mod (Greataxe, Greatsword, Lance, Maul.) The most damage you can do with a non-finesse weapon is 14 + str mod (Double Axe, Double Sword.)
Let us not forget that dwarves get a die increase to axes. That means traditionally 1d10 weapons can increase to 1d12 + str mod.
So, strength continues to be the damage-dealing ability and dex continues to be the workhorse ability. I've never heard anybody complain that their 16 strength, 12 dex fighter was OP'd by a rogue who can't wear heavy armor, much less carry it without sacrificing room for the myriad gear they tote around.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 9:21PM
#13
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I liked the old way of doing it, where a rapier had a dex modifier bonus to hit, but still a strength modifier bonus to damage.
On the surface it makes sense, but it's not how it actually works. It takes very little force to do damage with a rapier, so it really is all about placement. Plus, damage is abstract anyway.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 9:57PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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So, strength continues to be the damage-dealing ability and dex continues to be the workhorse ability. I've never heard anybody complain that their 16 strength, 12 dex fighter was OP'd by a rogue who can't wear heavy armor, much less carry it without sacrificing room for the myriad gear they tote around.
If that fighter had been 16 dex/12 str instead of 16 str/12 dex, here's the breakdown: - Wears light armor with roughly the same AC as heavy (I actually don't know what the suggested item progression is, but I imagine the AC bumps for heavy armor are supposed to correspond roughly to stat boosts upon level-up).
- Gains 5 ft. movement due to armor change
- Loses disadvantage on stealth checks due to armor change
- Gains a bonus to initiative - Loses around 10 pounds carrying capacity (40 lbs. gross, but wearing armor that weighs 30 lbs. less).
- Loses 1 point of damage per attack, total if using a 2h weapon (going from a maul to a katana)
- Loses no damage if using a 1h weapon (unless they're a dwarf in which case it's 1 point of damage again) Dex saves also tend to be the most common type as far as I can tell. Dex continues to be the best class-agnostic stat (like it was in 4e) for combat situations.
Edit: I guess in fairness that strength makes you better at disarming opponents in combat.
<Ioun> they're apparently making a MolIsCool pp
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5 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 1:12AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Nov 19, 2012
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Dex saves also tend to be the most common type as far as I can tell. Dex continues to be the best class-agnostic stat (like it was in 4e) for combat situations.
Edit: I guess in fairness that strength makes you better at disarming opponents in combat.
The argument that dexterity is the best stat in the game because it is most frequently called is difficult to argue. On one hand, your GM may be calling for dex saves reflexively without knowing what abilities apply to what situations. On the other hand, you may be playing a module that relies on dex-based characters.
From "How to Play.pdf"
Strength
Checks
The DM commonly asks you to use Strength when you make a check to climb a sheer wall, jump over a wide chasm, swim through rough water, bend bars, lift a gate, push a boulder, lift a tree trunk, or smash through a door.
Saving Throws
The DM commonly asks you to use Strength when you make a saving throw to escape a grapple or bindings, resist being pushed against your will, knock aside a boulder that is rolling toward you, catch a collapsing ceiling, or grab onto a ledge to keep from falling.
Dexterity
Checks
The DM commonly asks you to use Dexterity when you make a check to balance on a narrow ledge, sneak up on someone, tie a rope, wriggle free from bonds, or perform an acrobatic stunt.
Saving Throws
The DM commonly asks you to use Dexterity when you make a saving throw to wriggle free of a grapple, avoid spells such as lightning bolt and fireball, dodge a falling pillar, or dive out of the way of a charging horse.
As you can see above, a character with a high strength score can accomplish things dex based characters can not. For instance, if a dex-based character is having trouble picking a lock, the str-based character can always break the lock or carry the chest out with them. Of course, this works in a number of ways where the dextrous character has an advantage, but it is largely balanced, if not in favor of the strong character.
Also, you can see that the saving throws are nearly identical. The strong chracter can break their restraints or force themself free, while the dextrous character can wriggle free. The strong character has a better chance of holding onto a ledge, while the dextrous character must rely on tumbles and hope it's not too long of a fall.
If someone wants to make a stealthy dex-based fighter, then let them. That's why the Ambusher specialty exists in the first place. The player who opts for a stealth based fighter brings a stealth based fighter to the group. That is, a character that has to devote their maneuvers to build what the rogue can gain innately. Considering no one is supposed to know what their character is until they all meet, it shouldn't be unreasonable for players to create whatever character they want with whatever backstory they want without fear of letting the party down (because it doesn't exist yet.) If there are holes in the party (like not being able to sway an NPC because your fighter took Sneak instead of Intimidate,) c'est la vie.
And yes, with strength you can disarm an enemy. Unfortunately, Next requires you to take a maneuver called Disarm to do it. Or maybe not. It's a maneuver. And it's a combat action. Like, it's a martial dice roll, or a strength check. Whoa.
My final point: If you roll a character, that's your character. Them's the breaks. You rolled an 8 constitution? You better either learn that spellbook or how to keep track of arrows.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 9:42AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2005
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Saying strength isn't as powerful as dex is untrue.
Each stat lets a character do a field of heroic feats. If you narrow the field to Rapier with 18 dex vs. longsword with 18 strength, sure, the comparison is going to be similar. You can't just look at things from the perspective of Longsword vs. Rapier. While dex adds more things overall to a character sheet's numbers, dex based abilities can be hindered easier than strength based abilities.
A high dex character is maneuverable, has a good AC while moving, good attack with finese weapons, higher initiative modifier. Dex based skills are based on finesse obviously: moving, steath, balance, escape artist, opening things with skill not force, etc. Dex based characters are not as reliant on their equipment for defense. Remove their equipment and their defense is probably 80-90% effective still. Dex characters wilt under duress. While you can load up a dex character's numbers, those numbers can be reduced with situational DMing. You can deny dexterity bonuses which lower those stats. Dex based defenses can be affected by environment and general effects such as immobilize. Also, a party without any strength based characters is easy to pick on with heavy obstacles, unpickable locks or doors and climbing(bane of strengthless characters). I can't count how many times a party was thwarted by a simple climb obstacle because half the party couldn't make the check.
A high strength character generally has a good AC all the time, even when not moving, good attack with all weapons, exceptional damage with two-handed weapons. Strength based skills are power skills: breaking things, forcing things open or keeping things closed, pushing people around combat, opening things with force, not skill. Strength based characters are however highly reliant on equipment for defense. Remove their armor and or shield and they're probably 25% effective on defense. Strength characters however also do not bend as easily. They're durable in all situations and while their max numbers may be the same as a dex character, their numbers do not diminish as quickly as a dex based character in most situations. Strength bonuses are not easily denied. Strength is typically only an effect specifically targetting strength. General effects typically do not deny a strength based character anything besides the effect itself.
The perception here is that on paper, dexterity based characters provide more numbers which are deceiving as those numbers fluctuate. In practice, strength based characters offers more consistancy and durability as their numbers do not fluctuate as often.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 11:58AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Aug 26, 2007
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I just rolled up a dwarves fighter and no way would I go dex based with himMy with the battle ax I get 2d6 damage compaired to a d10 with a katana which is two handed which means no shield bonus to ac. Pointless when I can just use a battle ax for same damage but get +1 ac with it. And throwing axes at 1d8 is pretty cool. Also, when you figure in the caps on dex mod for certain armors, it's going to be tough to beat the heavier armors. I could of also gone with mountain dwarf for an additional +1 ac when wearing medium or heavier armor. no way I would go dex as prime stat For this character.
While a light armor dex based dualist might be compairible to a strength based fighter I can't see it overshadowing him. Yes, your fighter could go all dex and use a rapier, doing same damage as a long sword but with better int, sneaking ability, etc. but armor will be at best similar, and you will deny yourself the ability to employ the big guns effectively, such as great swords etc. also the majority of magic swords are long swords (or at least not finesse). So, forget about wielding flame toung or frost band, holy avenger or the vorproal sword. not to many rapiers of legend exist out there.
really, finess weapons are mostly so rogues and probably rangers don't have to worry as much about splitting their abilities between stealth and combat. Their limit in weapon profs already denies them the big weapons, so the finess is more of a way to let them have a decent to hit and damage mod in melee without forcing them to sacrifice their prime stat of dex which is used for a lot of their skills as well as boosting their ac that is limited to light armor.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 12:55PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2007
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Dex definitely affects more things on your character sheet. This is part of the reason I really like the optional CHA-based restriction on magic items, and the idea of using Wis OR Dex for initiative.
It seems like the light armor class being based on 11+Dex (with the highest starting stat typically being a +4 modifier) was done to help combat the power of Dex, especially for fighters. Chainmail is always going to be a higher AC. I'm also glad that STR-based weapons are higher damage on average (and I'm one of those "katanas don't really belong" people, so when you ditch them the difference is even better).
What I really would love is a STR-based restriction on armor, which would actually tie high-STR characters into stronger armor even moreso. But it's also another stat to track and this is nearly handled with class requirements, and it might make some classes even MADder (looking at you, cleric).
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5 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 1:12PM
#19
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Having Dex add to damage with ranged or melee weapons seems to much for a 1st level character. I would prefer to see this as a feat not available until higher level.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 20, 2012 - 1:16PM
#20
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The most damage you can do with a finesse weapon is 10 + dex mod (Katana.) The most damage you can do with a single swing is 12 + str mod (Greataxe, Greatsword, Lance, Maul.) The most damage you can do with a non-finesse weapon is 14 + str mod (Double Axe, Double Sword.)
Yet this 2/4 difference begins to fade if the damage is not just [W]+Mod but [W]+Mod+Dice+Bonus
I've never heard anybody complain that their 16 strength, 12 dex fighter was OP'd by a rogue who can't wear heavy armor, much less carry it without sacrificing room for the myriad gear they tote around.
The 16 Dex fighter is just laughing at him having the same AC with Dex+Light armor and no need to carry around that clunky heavy armor
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