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Dec 25, 2012 -- 12:28PM, CVB wrote:

Dec 25, 2012 -- 5:48AM, lok_soldier wrote:

Make nonmagical finesse weapons deal no damage on a normal hit against someone wearing any kind of heavy armor, and normal damage if a critical hit is scored. Against magic finesse weapons, any kind of heavy armor (magical or otherwise) provides resistance only on a normal hit (critical hits still deal full normal damage). Nothing else needs to be changed.

This works for AC styled defenses.  It's might be a bit much, but I like it.

Only issue I have is the 'all or nothing' aspect to it.  Which is a problem with AC in general.

It's not a perfect solution, but it is rather simple to implement in practice, and makes things more realistic. I could easily suggest a more complicated - and more realistic - solution, but I don't think it would really be any more useful.

I thought about going one step further and adding to the above suggestion the option to ignore the rule if a character opted to use Strength for his attack and damage with a finesse weapon, but then again it would hit another caveat: most finesse weapons are not built for the application of brute force - a forceful attack with a rapier would probably break the blade, most likely before it achieved penetration of heavy armor... So I'll leave my suggestion as is.

Another option would be to have the fighter's Strength modifier get added to the amount of damage parried. However, this makes Strength more attractive only to a fighter. To complicate it further, perhaps the fighter can add his Str modifier when parrying attacks made with non-finesse weapons, or from opponents larger than him, and either his Str or Dex modifier (player's choice) when parrying attacks made with finesse weapons. But I don't think this really helps (especially given its complexity).

As for finesse weapons ending up more underpowered than needed... just how many monsters in the Bestiary wear heavy armor? You need to switch to using a silver weapon to kill a werewolf, why should you not have to switch to using a non-finesse weapon to kill a heavy-armor-user? And if you are not good enough with a non-finesse weapon, then perhaps you shouldn't attempt to fight someone wearing heavy armor in the first place, at least not in a way which lets them make use of their advantage.
In reality, each weapon was designed to defeat different opponents under different circumstances. DDN's weapons list includes weapons from ancient Greece and Rome (spear, cestus), to the Middle Ages, and even the early Rennaisance (rapier), not to mention exotic or fantastic weapons. There is no way all weapons can be made equally useful in all situations. If that were the case, everyone would carry the single best weapon and ignore the rest.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 2:39PM, Sword_of_Spirit wrote:

Dec 25, 2012 -- 5:19PM, lok_soldier wrote:

There is no way all weapons can be made equally useful in all situations. If that were the case, everyone would carry the single best weapon and ignore the rest.

Those sentences seem to contradict each other.

Before 3e, longsword and two-handed sword were the best melee weapons. It wasn't a matter of preference for one type of attack style or benefit--they simply were better than all the other other options.

The goal since then has been to make sure that there is more weapon parity so that you can choose between them for matters of style and preference, and know that you might had a different mechanical experience based on how you choose, but that they are equally effective options.

As it is now, the problem is that finesse weapons are simply superior, since they can do the exact same damage with Dex as with Str, and Dex is a better ability score to have for everything else.

Finesse should be a class feature, not a Feat or weapon class.

I wonder if making Finesse affect "to hit" only and making Finesse weapon one dice down would balance things.

Dec 26, 2012 -- 4:15PM, CVB wrote:

Dec 26, 2012 -- 2:39PM, Sword_of_Spirit wrote:

Dec 25, 2012 -- 5:19PM, lok_soldier wrote:

There is no way all weapons can be made equally useful in all situations. If that were the case, everyone would carry the single best weapon and ignore the rest.

Those sentences seem to contradict each other.

Before 3e, longsword and two-handed sword were the best melee weapons. It wasn't a matter of preference for one type of attack style or benefit--they simply were better than all the other other options.

The goal since then has been to make sure that there is more weapon parity so that you can choose between them for matters of style and preference, and know that you might had a different mechanical experience based on how you choose, but that they are equally effective options.

As it is now, the problem is that finesse weapons are simply superior, since they can do the exact same damage with Dex as with Str, and Dex is a better ability score to have for everything else.

Finesse should be a class feature, not a Feat or weapon class.

I hate that because I like to make finesse characters a lot whether they be clerics or other characters. I just find that the more mobile my character is the more fun it is to play without needing to worry about yet another stat to pump points in. I'd hate for finesse to only be an option for one certain class when so many other classes can benefit from it.