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5 months ago ::
Dec 18, 2012 - 1:26PM
#31
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There goes my desire for specialty assassin's weapons having special maneuvers attached to them. As well as my desire for utility shadow magic powers on an Assassin. Rogue seems to have eaten it. Not cool WotC.
A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe
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5 months ago ::
Dec 18, 2012 - 1:29PM
#32
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There goes my desire for specialty assassin's weapons having special maneuvers attached to them. As well as my desire for utility shadow magic powers on an Assassin. Rogue seems to have eaten it. Not cool WotC.
I still see room for that.
Rogue can take martial sneak->kill. Leave the shadow magic sneak->kill for the assassin class.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 18, 2012 - 1:29PM
#33
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I just love the fact that non lurkey type rogues can still deal competitive damage, ergo: Sneak attack and assassinate are not required to work well. This to me is something rogues have needed for a long, long time. It makes SA and Assassinate a playstyle option instead of a core feature 
My two copper.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 18, 2012 - 1:32PM
#34
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There goes my desire for specialty assassin's weapons having special maneuvers attached to them. As well as my desire for utility shadow magic powers on an Assassin. Rogue seems to have eaten it. Not cool WotC.
I still see room for that.
Rogue can take martial sneak->kill. Leave the shadow magic sneak->kill for the assassin class.
What about poison use and assassinate? Am I to believe that they will include those abilities on both classes? Right now it seems like they want to eliminate the Assassin altogether, or relegate it to a Rogue-specific build and a Prestige Class.
A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe
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5 months ago ::
Dec 18, 2012 - 1:32PM
#35
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I just love the fact that non lurkey type rogues can still deal competitive damage, ergo: Sneak attack and assassinate are not required to work well. This to me is something rogues have needed for a long, long time. It makes SA and Assassinate a playstyle option instead of a core feature
Now they just need to do that with the skill mastery and extra skills...
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5 months ago ::
Dec 18, 2012 - 1:41PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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@Cyber-Dave My issue is not between a Hidden Assassinate Rogue and a Fighter. My issue is with the Hidden-Assassinate Rogue and the Sneak Attack Rogue OR a OnceperEncounte-Assassinate Rogue and a Sneak Attack Rogue. They both sorta take up the same niche and one just feels better. And it would be weird if the sneaky rogue prefers not to take Sneak Attack.
Which is why I said that sneak attack and assassinate should probably be rolled into one mechanic (called sneak attack, but which uses the mechanics of assassinate). The actual mechanics of sneak attack seem very... sub-par. I need to run the math to see if they are actually underpowered compared to the fighter. They might not be. But the only way to use sneak-attack effectively is to go dual wielding so that you can take the feat that allows you to gain advantage with every attack. Anything else and it is 100% for sure sub-par. Which makes assassinate a much better designed ability. It isn't that assassinate is too strong, it is that sneak attack is not designed very well right now. But, they are both so conceptually similar that I don't see any reason for both to exist... Alternatively, they could rewrite sneak attack so that it gives you a flat +Xd6 damage to your attack roll, once per turn, whenever you attack a target who grants you advantage or who is adjacent to one of your allies. That might be more what they were going for. It wouldn’t force you to give up advantage, but it would also allow you to attack without advantage. It is still sneaky, but it is not quite as much of a lurker ability as assassinate. It wouldn’t force you to take one particular feat progression for the ability to be useful. With a small amount of damage the power should be worth it without becoming overpowered compared to assassinate. (Say +1d6 at level 1, 5, and 10, for a total of +3d6--that might actually be too much. They would need to do some stress testing, +1d6 at level 1 and + 2d6 at level 10 might work better. Maybe a 3rd die could be added at level 20...)
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5 months ago ::
Dec 18, 2012 - 2:06PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Jun 27, 2004
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Conceptually, I like the idea of an Assassinate/Backstab option that is distinct from a Sneak Attack/Dirty Fighting option.
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Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.
No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).
(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
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5 months ago ::
Dec 18, 2012 - 2:09PM
#38
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@Cyber-Dave My issue is not between a Hidden Assassinate Rogue and a Fighter. My issue is with the Hidden-Assassinate Rogue and the Sneak Attack Rogue OR a OnceperEncounte-Assassinate Rogue and a Sneak Attack Rogue. They both sorta take up the same niche and one just feels better. And it would be weird if the sneaky rogue prefers not to take Sneak Attack.
Which is why I said that sneak attack and assassinate should probably be rolled into one mechanic (called sneak attack, but which uses the mechanics of assassinate). The actual mechanics of sneak attack seem very... sub-par. I need to run the math to see if they are actually underpowered compared to the fighter. They might not be. But the only way to use sneak-attack effectively is to go dual wielding so that you can take the feat that allows you to gain advantage with every attack. Anything else and it is 100% for sure sub-par. Which makes assassinate a much better designed ability. It isn't that assassinate is too strong, it is that sneak attack is not designed very well right now. But, they are both so conceptually similar that I don't see any reason for both to exist...
Alternatively, they could rewrite sneak attack so that it gives you a flat +Xd6 damage to your attack roll, once per turn, whenever you attack a target who grants you advantage or who is adjacent to one of your allies. That might be more what they were going for. It wouldn’t force you to give up advantage, but it would also allow you to attack without advantage. It is still sneaky, but it is not quite as much of a lurker ability as assassinate. It wouldn’t force you to take one particular feat progression for the ability to be useful. With a small amount of damage the power should be worth it without becoming overpowered compared to assassinate. (Say +1d6 at level 1, 5, and 10, for a total of +3d6--that might actually be too much. They would need to do some stress testing, +1d6 at level 1 and + 2d6 at level 10 might work better. Maybe a 3rd die could be added at level 20...)
What if sneak attack just granted advantage on a flank? I mean you are already dealing xd6 damage anyway advantage just means more hits more often. Combined with Two-Weapon Fighting you could make a pretty nice skirmisher Rogue...
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5 months ago ::
Dec 18, 2012 - 2:22PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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I actually love it Lokiare... sneak attack should just grant advantage to any attack against an enemy that is adjecent to one of your allies.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 18, 2012 - 2:28PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2011
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I agree that Assassinate seems inherently better than SA. Maybe SA could become the dirty-fighting option, granting extra damage when you have advantage, and Assassinate becomes the stealth-kill option. Although I agree that it's weird how Assassinate is better than SA for sneak attackers...
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