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5 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 6:09PM
#141
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2003
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I'm thinking more and more that putting the "awareness/perception" skill into other skills [nature*, dungeoneering, arcane (inner planes), religion (outer planes), streetwise (urban), politics (nobility/heraldry)] resolves the "gotta have" aspect, and puts it in an appropriate place.
*This should probably be split into land and sea, or possibly be limited based on background details.
Another idea I'd toyed with was creating a seventh stat, Perception, to be rolled/bought in addition to the traditional six. Mixing your idea with that one, it could really work.
A character with the Soldier background could notice an ambush, but not a typical trap or small details about an NPC. Similarly, the Guild Thief would notice traps and the courtier's fancy ring, but wouldn't be any better at avoiding the ambush in the forest. Even further, a Sage could quickly notice important facts on a page of text or identify objects by sight (the courtier's ring is a signet ring of the House of Dorne, exiles from the coastal kingdom of Rogen), but would suffer at both traps and ambushes. Bounty Hunter notices little things related to tracking down a fugitive.
I like it!
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5 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 6:57PM
#142
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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He already tried to "out-logic" my opinion, which is impossible
I challenged your claims with reasons and asked for evidence of your claims. You responded by running with your tail tucked and declaring the thread ended. You don't get to claim that your opinion is unassailable if you can't back up your claims.
and also ignores that it is as valid as his own.
I showed the validity of mine. You refused to show yours. Until you do, mine is more valid than yours is.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 9:03PM
#143
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Tactile methods. Knowedge of specific methods of searching. If you don't possess that knowledge, all the spot in the world isn't going to help you find things that are hidden in ways that require that knowledge.
A blind person feeling someones face to identify them, or feeling a box for secret compartments, or feeling currents of air from a nearby invisible creature, is using “spot”, just as much as “search”.
Spot is 100% visual. A blind person has no ability to spot things.
It is? I didn't see that line in under the skill...
You don't see a lot of obvious stuff in the rules. I guess none of our characters breathe.
Max, you still need to provide satisfactory definitions for Spot and Search, if you want them to be meaningfully different.
Are you saying “Spot” is the samething as good eyesight? If so, I would rather just call the skill Sharp-Sighted, or something like that.
And “Search”, you make it sound like the same thing as logic? What exactly do you mean by it. How is it a “skill”. What makes someone better than someone else (besides better eyesight)?
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5 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 9:37PM
#144
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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Max, you still need to provide satisfactory definitions for Spot and Search, if you want them to be meaningfully different.
I already have. Your personal opinion on how satisfactory they were is irrelevant. I don't have to please you.
Are you saying “Spot” is the samething as good eyesight? If so, I would rather just call the skill Sharp-Sighted, or something like that.
Spot sounds better. Also, you can train your ability to observe things better. Police are trained observers and an ex-marine buddy of mine told me about the training he got in "spot" while in the military.
And “Search”, you make it sound like the same thing as logic?
It's logic the same way that science is logic. There is a lot of knowledge and training to it that "logic" doesn't cover.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 5:03AM
#145
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Date Joined:
Dec 19, 2007
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They are not interchangable Skills, Spot is passive and always on, the other is chosen to be used a skill or ability like Darkvision.
Spot - passive, always working, like Peripheral vision.
You might be watching the dark stranger enter the tavern but out of the corner of your eye you spot the guy in the corner quietly pull a dagger out.
Not just about vision - You can notice the odd smell or change in temperature without trying to, it's just part of being aware, some people are more attuned to their surroundings than others. Thus they spot the ambush.
Search - active - 'You use Search whenever you actively look around for clues that point to a hidden object, such as a trap or secret door, or hints that might point to a person’s or creature’s passage through or activity in an area.
Not just about vision - You can choose to sniff around the alley and actively find the blood by the smell, or feel the wall with your hands for the hidden button.
If you are going to Merge skills, i'd say Spot and Listen into Awareness, tied to Wisdom, as the passive skill. Leave Search as active and seperate.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 10:05AM
#146
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2006
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It's a skill segregation that fluffs things up (and appeases the "how it used to be is best" crowd") and makes it seem there is more to the game than there is. In all reality, it's just another abstraction in the game that people take too seriously.
There is no real reason to have seperate spot and search checks when you have a limited amount of skills to allocate your resources into being good at. "I am very perceptive" is a more common, easier to understand character trait than "I can search for things really well, but when it comes to spotting things...".
Some skills should be merged because the game is an abstraction, not a set of rules for reality to bend to.
Want the tl;dr of my posts? Read the bold text; I put it there to highlight the main points for ease of skimming.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:10PM
#147
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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The distinction is in the How to Play document, page nine:
The Search skill, mostly relevant to finding, typically modifies an Intelligence check. The Listen and Spot skills, however, are all about noticing, and they typically modify Wisdom checks.
That's it. And I really see no reason all three couldn't be combined into Perception.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:32PM
#148
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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The distinction is in the How to Play document, page nine:
The Search skill, mostly relevant to finding, typically modifies an Intelligence check. The Listen and Spot skills, however, are all about noticing, and they typically modify Wisdom checks.
That's it. And I really see no reason all three couldn't be combined into Perception.
The main reason I'm against it is that most people have wildly different levels in all three abilities. I have an amazing search. Hell, my ex used to sometimes ask me to search her house for something she spent days looking for. I typically found it in minutes. My spot is not as good, but still pretty decent. My listen however.......just ask my wife 
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:39PM
#149
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The distinction is in the How to Play document, page nine:
The Search skill, mostly relevant to finding, typically modifies an Intelligence check. The Listen and Spot skills, however, are all about noticing, and they typically modify Wisdom checks.
That's it. And I really see no reason all three couldn't be combined into Perception.
The main reason I'm against it is that most people have wildly different levels in all three abilities. I have an amazing search. Hell, my ex used to sometimes ask me to search her house for something she spent days looking for. I typically found it in minutes. My spot is not as good, but still pretty decent. My listen however.......just ask my wife
The problem with that is that having them as separate skills doesn't automatically give you what you're talking about. This is especially so with the current skill dice rule.
Also, no one can force you to make a skill check you don't want to make. Just some food for thought about your listen "checks." Either that or you're using the optional rule about "taking 1" on a check that you don't care about the results of.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:48PM
#150
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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The distinction is in the How to Play document, page nine:
The Search skill, mostly relevant to finding, typically modifies an Intelligence check. The Listen and Spot skills, however, are all about noticing, and they typically modify Wisdom checks.
That's it. And I really see no reason all three couldn't be combined into Perception.
The main reason I'm against it is that most people have wildly different levels in all three abilities. I have an amazing search. Hell, my ex used to sometimes ask me to search her house for something she spent days looking for. I typically found it in minutes. My spot is not as good, but still pretty decent. My listen however.......just ask my wife
The problem with that is that having them as separate skills doesn't automatically give you what you're talking about. This is especially so with the current skill dice rule.
Also, no one can force you to make a skill check you don't want to make. Just some food for thought about your listen "checks." Either that or you're using the optional rule about "taking 1" on a check that you don't care about the results of.
That's a flaw with the skill system. And taking a 1 is not a viable option. 1) how am I supposed to know if I care or not, and 2) even with a poor listen skill, you will still sometimes succeed at a check better than a 1 would represent.
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