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Dec 19, 2012 -- 7:14PM, Rory wrote:

Dec 19, 2012 -- 5:03PM, MeCorva wrote:

Can someone who uses the phrase "one shot an ogre" why it is bad? From context, I'm guessing the complaint is the fighter does too much damage at high levels compared to previous editions? Lets say a 20th level fighter run into 5 ogres who just happen to be level 5. What do people think should happen: 1)The fighter kills them easily, in 1 shot, leading to a 5 round massacre, with the fighter losing roughly 10% of hp 2) the fighter kills each of them in 2 rounds, losing 50% of hp 3). The fighter dies Also, if a level 20 wizard runs into the same group is it 1) the wizard uses 10% of his spell allotment and wins 2) the wizard used 50% or 3) the wizard dies. Presumably, if hp are a daily resource and spells are a daily resource then if the wizard can cast spells and win, the fighter should be able to swing swords and win? Mostly I'm asking this because I think this design needs to work for everyone, so if the designers don't understand your concern, they can't fix it Back on topic - weapon group manouvers is the best way to make weapons more distinct.

 Oneshoting ogres is nothing new. An Ogre of 2e had 18ish hp. That was a longsword crit. 

The problem with Next is it happens every time.

Dec 19, 2012 -- 10:45AM, mrpopstar wrote:

Dec 19, 2012 -- 10:36AM, ChrisNightwing wrote:

The most significant reason for the damage bloat? The way in which we scale hitpoints. Every level it's a dice plus your constitution modifier, and some of those high-level threats have significant constitution modifiers. Let's dial it right back, get rid of con mod every level (it also diminishes the differences between a d10 and a d6), and consider reducing the number of HP we're handing out. We want traditional values, so let's try d4 for a mage, d6 for a rogue or cleric and d8 for a fighter. Give out a basic number of HP for existing (your 'meat' value, if you will) and con mod to begin with, or con modifier to begin with. Monster HP would be determined in the same way, with the key point being that their number of hit dice doesn't mean anything (unless there are some hidden maths there..), so can be tuned to the right level value.

I say we get rid of the dice every level and just gain CON mod as we level up.

Getting rid of the CON mod to HP effectively neuters the relevance of CON altogether. -- It's really the only reason we invest in it.

A creature (character or otherwise) should start with CON Ability Score + Mod HP at first level, and gain their CON Mod to HP every level thereafter.

If fighters or barbarians need to be beefier, offer them a +5 HP at creation as a class feature. 

You know, this was my concept of a new D&D way before this playtest. The Bounded Accuracy idea is - at basic thought-  quite good concerning this problem, but why stop there and inflate this time hit points and damages instead of attack bonuses and AC? According to my understanding of a good rpg, characters should only need to gain new abilities/maneuvers/powers/spells/feats (in other words, resources to survive and overcome difficulties) as they gain levels. Mortality (no matter how abstract it is) and threat to mortality therefore, should stay more or less static throughout a campaign. As a character you should use your resources to tip the scales of the balance in your favor, that's all.

Reflecting this idea, characters should,

* gain hit points equal to their CON modifiers as they level up 
* start at 1st level with a hp equal to CON score + CON modifier
* start at 1st level with an extra +4 hp if they are fighters or any other warrior type, +3 if cleric, +2 if rogue, +1 if wizard.
* get +2 hp at the start if they are dwarves,
* gain extra hit points (+6, or maybe a random roll, like 2d6) if they want to be tougher, by selecting a feat

and scale the monster hit points and all damages according to this progression. What do we have?

* A typical human fighter with 15 Constitution will start with 15 + 2 + 4 = 21 hp and progress up to say 59 hp in level 20 (if he never raises his Con) while a wizard with 11 constitution will start with 12 hp, and does not progress up unless she takes a feat to raise it to 18 at the first feat gain opportunity.