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Dec 18, 2012 -- 6:56PM, Shirebrok wrote:

That certainly is a fair assessment. If this is indeed what he is trying to express, the whole thing makes a lot more sense. I guess I'm upset that the thread starts off with a question to make a point, but said point hasn't been made explicit as of yet, nearly two days later.

I certainly agree that advice like "if it feels good, do it", without more context or justification, is poor - much like "you have to do it this way". There must always be something to back up a claim, no matter what it is. I suppose you could say that what bothers me most is not necessarily the topic, but rather the approach used.

Anyway, I was out of line in my last post, and I apologize for it.

No need for apologies or anything. These sort of posts I make are meant to provoke a response because getting the emotional response out of the way is sometimes necessary. Also, the nature of writing posts on a forum makes immediate clarification or the realization of intent difficult at best.

Dec 19, 2012 -- 7:19AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Sure there is a wrong way. The wrong way is the way that gets your character killed or causes your character to fail.

If you do it the wrong way in my games, you fail. This is no different then life, so if you can't take it, then go watch a movie. There are no other games, not even Snakes and Ladders, where "everyone wins" There is a wrong way and the wrong way equals loosing the game.

I don't want a Doctor who thinks there is "no wrong way" to treat me when I need medical attention. I don't want the advice of an investor who thinks there is "no wrong way" to invest my money, I don't want to hire a plumber who thinks there is "no wrong way" to fix my toilet.

I don't want to get served by the snot nosed punk in Dunkin Donuts who thinks there is no "wrong way" to serve me cold coffee.

I don't want anything to do with people who think failure is a good life choice. I don't want a DM who says "there is no wrong way"

Every narcissist who is doing it the the wrong way and espousing "there is no wrong way!" will likely attack this post, but the key word here is, You chose to be wrong, don't whine to me because you choose to fail.

What's the right way? There are many different right ways. My doctor may give me different treatment options. My plumber will suggest I install a low flow toilet instead of repairing the old one, I could order an expresso instead of a coffee.

That's variety, there are different play styles, there is no single "right way" Many might not like my DM style, I have't met anyone who didn't like the games I run, but I have no delusion that my way is the only right way.

But while there are many right ways, there are wrong ways. I was in a game that was played the wrong way, it was my first expereince roleplaying, and it was so wrong I ended up punching the DM in the nose and leaving with his girlfriend (wait, come to think of it I really enjoyed that, perhaps it wasn't the wrong way to play after all)


I am coming across as a jerk here, and for good reason. "there is no wrong way" is inevitably used by those who are doing it the wrong way and are simply trying to cover for their failure. Seriously would you use this excuse if you were doing it the right way?

Seriously, Your players, if they do a game session every second week are going to spend 144 hours a year playing the game. Not including work don't outside of the game. You should be doing it the right way.

If not, at least have the brass to say "yes I am doing it the wrong way, but that's how we damn well like it" don't hide behind "there is no wrong way" 

If you are going to railroad your players and force them to follow an exact storyline, don't pull the "there is no wrong way" card to hide that you are a railroading tyrant. be upfront and say "I am playing an exact storyline that you can't veer from, I am not playing an open sandbox game. Jump the hoops or be run over by my train."  Have the brass to say you are wrong.

Great post.

Realizing ones weaknesses in their own DM style or approach is incredibly important because understanding ones flaws is the first step towards improving on them or compensating for them. This is why a "no wrong way" attitude can be toxic because it impedes self-reflection, self-criticism and therefore stifles self-improvement.

Dec 19, 2012 -- 2:00PM, Shaddylogic wrote:

 Yagami, please don't take the following the wrong way, but I think you're posting the wrong sorts of topics on the board. It's not that you don't have good intentions, but the method is a bit perplexing.

Your primary goal is that you want people to discuss the game in at a more game design level when it comes to discussing different aspects of the game, and how players handle them.

Instead of spelling this out you tend to attack the reader either directly or indirectly with the topic. Additionally your topics tend to present examples that muddy the waters of the discussion, and tend to be hyperbole in nature. Lastly you seem to want to "guide" people to conclusions instead of speaking your mind from the outset.

I'm just asking you to re-evaluate your writing style, and approach to making your points. You have some good ideas; you seem to have trouble getting them across.

Shaddy, I appreciate that...but that's part of why I do it.