|
6 months ago ::
Dec 17, 2012 - 2:02PM
#131
|
Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2007
|
Therefore most DMs will say no or force players to jump through a long series of convoluted "Mother may I" scenarios to qualify. They will not reduce builditis just change it from feats/skills to I must kill 2 giants, 1 ettin, 2 basilisks and serve an albatross pie to the local duke. Thus instead of one persons character being constrained the entire party is constrained.
So if I've created an order knights in this one kindgom in my campaign setting, and a character wants to join that order and get everything that goes along with it, shouldn't they do whatever the order requires of all it's applicants? Sure, some DMs might handwave that, but if they're going to include an order like that, I believe that many of them would tack on some optional quests that a PC or the party could do to join in the group. Or, since it sounds like they plan to have the core include some prestige classes, just pick one out of the books that fit and then after they've done the quests/story/adventuring that's required to get into the order, they get the prestige class.
To me, these kind of options help the character comingle with the story and the world better. Sure, some DMs would say no, that PrC doesn't exist in my world, but really, there's nothing that can be done about that. The same would/could be true even if the options didn't have story related requirements. "Nope, no arcane archers in my world. Nope no archmages in my world." If a DM wants to make that kind of decision, having classes taht require story requirements aren't going to change things for that kind of DM. But for the kind that want to find ways for that kind of character progression and choice to easily interact with the campaign - this just seems like an awesome choice. Not the only choice, there might be other ways of handling prestige class kind of things, but this is an awesome one for those of us who want it.
Trevor Kidd
Community Manager
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 17, 2012 - 2:03PM
#132
|
Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2012
|
However, I also love organization, entity, etc. based prestige classes that require story elements to occur in order for the PC to qualify for them. About the only thing I don't like when it comes to prestige classes are the ones people take for no other reason than the mechanics of the class make them the most powerful that they can be.
That's definitely the kind of thing I like to see, but I think of those as story driven too. If there's a known thieves guild, organization of knights/adventurers, some spy network, or really any group that the PCs interact with and one of them wants to join up, there would likely be some kind of tasks (read quests) or initiation they would have to go through. If I can reward that player by giving them a prestige class once they're done those tasks, that would be awesome.
And to be clear, I can totally reward that player with something like that right now. But having rules from them exist in the core books would be awesome, and super helpful in helping me flesh out those organizations.
The problem is we can do all of that without prestige classes. The reward is usually having contacts and better prices on things. Bonuses to gathering rumors and what not. Not all players and DMs will want to have groups and secret societies in their games. Should they be punished?
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 17, 2012 - 2:05PM
#133
|
Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
|
Who says that having groups and secret societies is the only way to get it?
Not Mearls, that's for sure.
You're taking something that's being shown as an example - a potential example even - and assuming that is the only way it can ever be. That's just wrong.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 17, 2012 - 2:08PM
#134
|
Date Joined:
May 24, 2010
|
However, I also love organization, entity, etc. based prestige classes that require story elements to occur in order for the PC to qualify for them. About the only thing I don't like when it comes to prestige classes are the ones people take for no other reason than the mechanics of the class make them the most powerful that they can be.
That's definitely the kind of thing I like to see, but I think of those as story driven too. If there's a known thieves guild, organization of knights/adventurers, some spy network, or really any group that the PCs interact with and one of them wants to join up, there would likely be some kind of tasks (read quests) or initiation they would have to go through. If I can reward that player by giving them a prestige class once they're done those tasks, that would be awesome.
And to be clear, I can totally reward that player with something like that right now. But having rules from them exist in the core books would be awesome, and super helpful in helping me flesh out those organizations.
The problem is we can do all of that without prestige classes. The reward is usually having contacts and better prices on things. Bonuses to gathering rumors and what not. Not all players and DMs will want to have groups and secret societies in their games. Should they be punished?
Exactly, this is exactly what I was trying to say, it has nothing to do with being a bad DM but rather that most of the RP requirements i've seen in the past are incompatable with the shared vision of the game world as developed by the players and DM.
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 17, 2012 - 2:15PM
#135
|
Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
|
Exactly, this is exactly what I was trying to say, it has nothing to do with being a bad DM but rather that most of the RP requirements i've seen in the past are incompatable with the shared vision of the game world as developed by the players and DM.
I for one am not clear about what 'RP requirements' actually means.
Hope it won't be an attempt to balance mechanical perks with fluff, as that would inevitably be ineffective.
Again, if a PC wants to become a member of an order or organisation or sect, he can just roleplay that. There is rarely any need for specific rules.
Heck, I had 3 Dark Lantern players in Eberron without anyone feeiling the need to take the PrC.
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 17, 2012 - 2:15PM
#136
|
Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
|
It's not incompatible, not in the least.
Player: I'd like to play a Wizard, and eventually go Blood Mage!
DM: Ok, let's see how you'd do that in my setting.
There you go, shared vision.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 17, 2012 - 2:18PM
#137
|
Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
|
I for one am not clear about what 'RP requirements' actually means.
Hope it won't be an attempt to balance mechanical perks with fluff, as that would inevitably be ineffective.
It doesn't mean nearly what people think it is supposed to mean. It doesn't mean what requirements for PrCs used to mean. It's not supposed to be a balancing implement.
What it means is that entry is still restricted, but not mechanically restricted. The point is to encourage story development of individual characters, to encourage a long-term goal for them to work toward on the story side. Yes, doing that will require your DM to let you. But doing anything in D&D requires your DM to let you. And if your DM doesn't let you have fun, then you need a new DM.
Again, to emphasize: Mike is using the term 'requirement' in a fundamentally different way than it was used in 3e or 4e.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 17, 2012 - 2:23PM
#138
|
Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
|
Regarding prestige classes, I like what was said in the article. Linking them to the campaign world rather than just focusing on mechanics is a good idea. Prestige classes should have a very clear story behind them, rather than simply being a collection of mechanics that let you do something fancy.
Considering that the survey asked if the Prestige Class "Exotic Weapon Master" had the right flavour for D&D, I'm already skeptical of how much flavour these Presitge Classes will have. You can flavour that as something with a great story, but it will be, at its core, just a mechanical PrC.
Well, that explains why I didn't check off "Exotic Weapon Master". And in the comments section I explained that things like that don't fit my view of what should be a Prestige Class. "Exotic Weapon Master" is just a character who has learned how to use an exotic weapon really well. Nothing about that says "Prestige Class" to me.
And regarding groups and societies (secret or otherwise): Prestige Classes grounded with story and flavor don't have to be part of groups. Here is an example:
Dragon Slayer
Prerequisite: Slay a dragon that is threatening a populated area. You must bring back some sort of trophy (such as the dragon's horns) as proof.
You will then become a Dragon Slayer (tm!) without having to deal with the annoyances of joining a society (like those pretentious jerks over at the DSA* with their "dues" and "regulations").
The same thing can be done with most, if not all, Prestige Classes.
*Dragon Slayer Association
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 17, 2012 - 2:24PM
#139
|
Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2010
|
From what is attempted to be accomplished, 4th edition themes or a solution similar to that is a better...solution than prestige classes. Is a flavor/story character option that grow/progress in parallel with your character (there is no rules stating that you can only get a theme at level 1 too), and is a great example of having flavor/fluff/lore/story/plot options in mechanics without sacrificing/interrupting your character functionality and progression.
Sadly...because is a 4e thing, it won't be implemented...
Is bad when the system goes out of it's way to make flavorful and functional mutually exclusive...
|
|
|
|
6 months ago ::
Dec 17, 2012 - 2:25PM
#140
|
|
|
I for one am not clear about what 'RP requirements' actually means.
Hope it won't be an attempt to balance mechanical perks with fluff, as that would inevitably be ineffective.
It doesn't mean nearly what people think it is supposed to mean. It doesn't mean what requirements for PrCs used to mean. It's not supposed to be a balancing implement.
What it means is that entry is still restricted, but not mechanically restricted. The point is to encourage story development of individual characters, to encourage a long-term goal for them to work toward on the story side. Yes, doing that will require your DM to let you. But doing anything in D&D requires your DM to let you. And if your DM doesn't let you have fun, then you need a new DM.
Again, to emphasize: Mike is using the term 'requirement' in a fundamentally different way than it was used in 3e or 4e.
The word "requirement" has a rather distinct definition. It is not used to describe a thing that "is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.".
|
|
|
