Community

Dec 13, 2012 -- 2:59PM, Aesurtiel wrote:

Now, why can't an ooe have natural armor?

it can, but Juiblex isn't described as having natural armor.  He has some scabs floating on his surface, but nothing in his description justifies an AC of 42 or a Dexterity of 28.  

The point is not that we can't offer ad hoc justifications but that the system doesn't even care abotut such justifications and many peopel don't even bother with them.  Why is Juiblex so hard to hit?  because it has AC 42.  Duh.  What does that AC represent?  That it's hard to hit.

In Next, you first decide why Juiblex is so impossible to kill and build accordingly.  Now Juiblex can have an AC of 16, say, to represent that demonic surface tension.  But it also has a ton of hp, regenerative abilities, and possibly the ability to absorb matter to give it temporary hp.  Now fighting Juiblex is organic (so to speak).  He's just as tough as Acererak (both level 26 creatures in 4e), but doesn't need to have the same defenses and hp merely because of his level, role and secondary role (or, in 3e, because you want him to have a specific CR)

Dec 13, 2012 -- 3:11PM, Lawolf wrote:

In one of the articles regarding minotaur design they went into depth on how they chose the level of the minotaur first.  Then gave it HP according to its level, AC according to its level, and so on.

You mean this article?  From five months ago and in which they were going to list "mooks", "elite" and "solo"?  And in which the playtest doesn't in fact use mooks, elite or solo anymore, indicatign that the monster design announced way back in July is completely obsolete?

Let's compare this to today's Q&A, which also discusses monster design (question )  No talk of mooks, elites or solos.  That consideration is gone.  Rather, monster design begins with the monster's qualities, and from there you work out stats and then you check to see if you've met the roug guidelines established based on assumed PC abilities.  (Not "scaled" PC abilities.  Rodney doesn't tell us that you compare the monster ot a given level.

Yes, I'm very aware of the monster design aspects of the playtest.  You, on the other hand, appear to be about half-a-year out of date.  

Also, I don't necessarily think that type of design makes sense either.  I am perfectly fine with saying ok this monster has AC 26 because its scales are tougher than steel, Str 26 because it is stronger than any mortal could ever be, and so on.  However it is much more difficult to desing a balanced monster/game that way.

Only if you need the monster to be a specific "level".  if you can't figure out why Juiblex should be "26th level" maybe he shouldn't be 26th level.  If you're image of Juiblex' abilities means he only ends up challenging 20th level PCs, maybe he should be 20th level and we shouldn't just use the Aura of Awesome to boost his stats to 26th level.

Dec 13, 2012 -- 3:24PM, Aesurtiel wrote:

High AC  doesn't mae something 'hard to hit'.

It does in the playtest.

So maybe hitting a giant ooze is pretty easy. How hard is it to deal damage to it? Maybe cutting it isn't hard at all. But can you seperate its fluids from the main body?

Maybe a lot of things.  but in 3e and 4e, it's never explained what those things are.  All you get is an amorphous (pun intended) "natural armor" bonus that could be anything.

It's math first, explanations later (if at all).  The playtest is explanations first, and mechanics replicate those explanations.

Do you want it to be a sinewy agile mass of sewage?  Then you give it a high Dex, and its AC represents in part this dodging ability.  Want it to have preternatural surface tension?  High Constitution and the AC includes this "natural armor".  Maybe a little of both?  Well, you decide and make the stats suit your taste.

But in 3e and 4e, the math decided it for you and you had to post hoc justify those numbers.  Often, the developers didn't bother to do so, as with Juiblex.

And I'm not blaming Rob Scwalb, the author of the 4e Juiblex article.  That was a great article.  But it illustrates the disconnect between the numbers and creature.  In 3e and 4e, we didn't really expect the numbers to have justification.  Saying "It's a 26th level solo" or "It's CR 19" was usually all it took.  

BTW, 3e Juiblex has a +20 natural armor bonus (but a Dex of merely 14 -- so much for being agile)!  Size (large) only justifed +2 of that bonus.  Did it really have "surface tension" equal to more than two suits of full plate mail?  Here's the physical description.  Can you spot the justification for the +20 natural armor bonus?  I can't.

A shuddering, glistening cone of jelly and slime striated with veins of black and green rears up from the pit. Baleful red eyes swim in the thing's gelatinous body, and dripping pseudopods of tremulous ooze writhe with latent hunger in every direction at once.