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Locked: Poll: Did WotC lie?
7 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 7:25AM #31
The_Jester
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Dec 13, 2012 -- 1:56AM, lokiare wrote:

Do you think that WotC lied to us or not?



No. 
They still had hopes for 4e back in 2010 but quickly cancelled much of their work for 5e in 2011. The tool was likely quickly and quietly cancelled when work began on 5e. 

No the haven't lied. Please stop trying to stir up needless animosity. 

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 7:25AM #32
Hipster_Cat
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2011
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Just like I thought. Pedantic arguments are used to defend the beloved brand. 

Meh. 
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 7:28AM #33
Uskglass
Date Joined: Oct 17, 2007
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Dec 13, 2012 -- 7:23AM, Polaris wrote:

Given the context of the thread in question and given that we were waiting at the time for updates to our (then) off-line character builders with no idea they were going to be yanked (or more accuratedly not supported any longer), the statements were at least deliberately misleading....to the point where I would consider them dishonest at least.

-Polaris



 
I woud consider them to be underdelivering and failing to meet and manage expectations. I would question their skills, not their honesty.

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 7:32AM #34
wrecan
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Dec 13, 2012 -- 7:07AM, Hipster_Cat wrote:

What does context have to do with him not being honest about it being awesome and supplementing the existing tools? It didn't supplement, it replaced with an inferior product.



Because that statement was a joke and not to be taken seriously.  Which is apparent because it was written as a verbatim statement of what someone else light-heartedly suggested Paolo would have to write to make him excited, because it was followed bya  smiley, because it was then followed by a sentence starting witht he word "Seriously" (thus indicating that what preceded was not "serious"), because later he said that he is "also known to make jokes", and because he said he did think it would be awesome but that he isn't allowed to discuss anything else about the unreleased tools, which means that any contrary statements he may have appeared to have made are unreliable.

here's what happened:
Preston_R: In order to get me excited, you have to say "X"
Paolo: "X".  {smiley} Seriously, it will be awesome.
Others: People take his statement about "X" seriously.
Others: Promise backlash if "X" is untrue.
Paolo: I'm also know to make jokes.  But in this case, I didn't say anything untrue. It is going to be awesome and we're not yet ready to tell you more about it.

Four days later, when it's released, people believe that "X" is untrue. 

lokiare: Paolo said it would be "X" and also that he "didn't lie".  Therefore he lied!

Anybody who understands context: No.  All he meant was that he thought it would be awesome and he couldn't say anything else about it.  Also, "X" is a matter of opinion.

And to be clear, the "X" here is "it supplements existing tools".  What happened was that the Character Builder was turned into a web-based tool.  Does the online Character Builder supplement existing tools like the Compendium?  Arguably.  Did it also replace the off-line CB?  Yes.  

More importantly, does the narrative of "Paolo lied" make any sense?  Why would Paolo lie about a product that is going to be released in only four days?!  Doesn't it make more sense to think that Paolo didn't think he was lying?  That he thought he was engaged in light-hearted banter with people, who, generally, were appreciative of his attempts to communicate with the fanbase?  What would it gain Paolo or Wizards to lie about the product four days before its release?  Do you think they bamboozled lot sof people into buying subscriptions in those four days?  Or to not drop their subscriptions in those four days?

The story of "Paolo" makes no sense and in context, it doesn't hold any water unless you squint sideways really hard, and assume completely incomprehensible motives on their part. 

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 7:33AM #35
The_Jester
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Dec 13, 2012 -- 2:24AM, lokiare wrote:

Its all about trust. Can we trust WotC to tell us the truth and not try to deceive us into buying something we don't want with 5E?



Yeah.... how many people saw scans of the 4e books before they released? WotC can't keep the cat in the bag. Failing that people will look through the book in the stores, read reviews, and talk to friends. There's is NO WAY WotC can decieve us into buying a game that isn't what it is supposed to be. Period. 

Dec 13, 2012 -- 2:24AM, lokiare wrote:

Will people stay away from 5E because of WotC reputation?



Probably so, and it is a well-deserved reputation. The D&D brand team is doing their best to change it, but the upper management of the company seems quite happy being secretive and potentially manipulative of the audience. 

Dec 13, 2012 -- 2:24AM, lokiare wrote:

If people think WotC lies all the time they may just refuse to buy their products on principle. Its entirely relevant...



They don't lie. They never lie.
They don't tell us all the story, keep information hidden behind walls of NDAs, and only release information at a controlled rate with every possible negative carefully and deliberately spun (when they bother to tell us anything at all) while their employees are often relegated to sticking to scripts of hard talking points at public apperances.  
But they don't lie.  

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 7:33AM #36
Polaris
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2003
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Dec 13, 2012 -- 7:28AM, Uskglass wrote:

Dec 13, 2012 -- 7:23AM, Polaris wrote:

Given the context of the thread in question and given that we were waiting at the time for updates to our (then) off-line character builders with no idea they were going to be yanked (or more accuratedly not supported any longer), the statements were at least deliberately misleading....to the point where I would consider them dishonest at least.

-Polaris



 
I woud consider them to be underdelivering and failing to meet and manage expectations. I would question their skills, not their honesty.




Except look at the DTG of the posts.  At that time Paulo had to know what the new application was and what it could (and could not do) as lead developer.   Given that and given his posts as Wotc's representative, I have plenty of reason to question their honesty in this at least.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I do agree with you about their competance as well fwiw.

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 7:33AM #37
Uskglass
Date Joined: Oct 17, 2007
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Dec 13, 2012 -- 7:25AM, Hipster_Cat wrote:

Just like I thought. Pedantic arguments are used to defend the beloved brand. 

Meh. 




Nope. It's about looking at the problem for what it is: it was a matter of incompetence, not untruthfulness.

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 7:37AM #38
lokiare
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
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Dec 13, 2012 -- 4:21AM, kadim wrote:


Those are not statements of fact. Saying what I will or will not find works well with something else is a sales pitch, which is broadly considered to not be a statement of fact. Him saying he didn't say anything untrue is a statement of fact but it's also a true statement of fact because the cited statements cannot be considered a statement of fact. It certainly wouldn't hold up in court.


The context of the statements is also important when determining whether something is a statement of fact or not. Generally speaking, stuff on a forum or other internet medium (particularly in the US) is regarded as opinion.


What it means to you is fine but that doesn't mean that WOTC as a company or through a representative in any meaningful sense lied to anyone. Whether you feel deceived by comments that were taken to be said on the company's behalf is not the same as a public lie. At best what you've got here is a bit of PR that didn't pan out, like when you buy a different brand of washing up liquid that claims to be as good as your last one but isn't.


If someone tells me this Super Bowl will be the best one yet and I'll find the half time show to be even more inventive than last year, I don't take that as a statement of fact because of the context it's made - namely, a sales pitch or a statement of an excited fan.


What you've shown me is the statement of an excited fan.


edit: oh yeah, and "supplement" could mean a lot of things, including simply that you'll use it alongside something else.




It doesn't need to hold up in a court of law. It needs to hold up in the court of public opinion. Huge difference. We'll see what the poll says in a few days.

It doesn't matter where something is found. It is a fact or not based on its merits. Paolo presented it as a fact and backed it up with a second post. I take it since you want to get into a semantic debate that you are acknowledging that he did in fact lie?

If the Lead Programmer for a product tells me the product will do something then it turns out not to do it, then guess what? They lied. Its pretty clear cut...Smile

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 7:39AM #39
lokiare
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
Posts: 15,442

Dec 13, 2012 -- 4:44AM, wrecan wrote:

Lokiare if you wanted the poll to be fair you would have presented both sides honestly instead of presenting your interpretation and asking people to agree with you.




Really? I thought I posted it pretty neutrally. I even included the post that he was quoting. I then asked if people thought WotC lied. What side did I not include honestly?Smile

"Hey guys, that was a good job we did killing the Lord of the Nine Hells. But man it's a good thing there weren't any oiled ropes or solid doors between us and him or we might have REALLY been in trouble."
-Unknown
Look here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. I'm looking for players for a 4E fantasy grounds game.Swallowed Lich's Implement, help please.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 7:40AM #40
lokiare
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
Posts: 15,442

Dec 13, 2012 -- 5:57AM, Gwathir wrote:

SERIOUSLY? lol

You may was well call this thread 'The Conspiracy Theory'

Do you really think WOTC would purposely deceive us into buying their product? Do you honestly think they didn't want/intend on delivering the product they sought?

Do you really think they would have made 4th Edition/DDI knowing it would of flunked? and that their 'posts' was just a 'stunt' to make us apply to their product?

Have you seen the hard core nerds developping the game? Or do you think they are just there for show and they secretly have business men in suits developping the game?

No WOTC didn't lie, they just unfortunately wern't able to fully deliver on what they expected (hoped) was going to be a great success.


So, yes we put our trust in DDN because we have a team of talented and dedicated geeks who love the game as much (probably more) then we do.

Were all in this together. Now stop treating the D&D team like its some crooked organization... sheesh




If they think a company won't try to bilk their customers out of money at every turn, you are amazingly naive...Smile

"Hey guys, that was a good job we did killing the Lord of the Nine Hells. But man it's a good thing there weren't any oiled ropes or solid doors between us and him or we might have REALLY been in trouble."
-Unknown
Look here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. I'm looking for players for a 4E fantasy grounds game.Swallowed Lich's Implement, help please.
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